Water cooler

2009 2010 2011 2012 2013

Working with non-English language Wikipedias / language policy

Hello everyone. During a recent discussion about the Wikimedian in Residence role at the National Library of Scotland a valid point was raised about notifying Wikipedians who spoke Gaelic to the role. I think everyone is aware that there are opportunities for Wikimedia UK to do some excellent outreach work to speakers of non-English languages and Wikipedians who work on non-English language projects. These are not limited to what might be called indigenous UK languages such as Kernowac or Gaelic, but could also include languages that are pretty widely spoken such as Bengali, Polish and Hindi. If anyone has any suggestions on how we might successfully do this please do share them here. It was also noted that we may have a need for a language policy, particularly to cover any Wikimedian in Residence roles (and, potentially any eventual Wikimedia UK recruitment) in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Again, comments and suggestions are very welcome. Thanks in advance for any input on this important topic! Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 23:51, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

The inspiration for such a Policy came from a discussion on Scotland, and therefore this thread should really only involve the WMUK's involvement in Scotland rather than an overarching linguistic policy on the situation of minority languages (such as Bengali) in England. Our Policy on Scotland must begin with the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 and Bòrd na Gàidhlig who are responsible for Gaelic on behalf of the Scottish Government. Wales has similar, yet stronger, legislation (including the Welsh Language Act 1993 and the National Assembly for Wales (Official Languages) Act 2012) which gave the Welsh language official status in Wales - and I suggest that we also include Wales in our Policy, under a separate heading. The Welsh Language Commissioner ensures that "In Wales, the Welsh language should be treated no less favourably than the English language" and "Persons in Wales should be able to live their lives through the medium of the Welsh language if they choose to do so." There are common elements to both countries, which should be acknowledged as should over-riding international law, including European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, the Universal Declaration of Linguistic Rights (1996) and to some extent the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. -- Llywelyn2000 (talk) 01:31, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I would strongly counsel against taking a leaf from the UK's public sector rules on this; they are overly-heavyweight and proscriptive, and don't actually apply to Wikimedia or WMUK. Instead, the focus should be on engagement with and support for non-English language groups (be that Welsh/Gaelic/BSL/Polish/Bengali/Arabic/etc.) - the question really is "are there people with such interests in our communities?" - if yes, where are they and what do they want?; if no, are there things we're doing wrongly that we could correct, and/or are there appropriate groups with whom we can reach out to encourage such participation. Jdforrester (talk) 05:32, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Jdforrester - the employer here is The National Library, not WMUK, they are not only in the public sector but are bound by the laws (not "rules") of Scotland, and their own in-house language Policy. No, they don't apply to Wikimeda UK, but they certainly do to the employer. I've outlined my reasons above why the Policy should mention specifically the different countries (Scotland and Wales) and imho the title should reflect this; I suggest "WMUK's Language Policy for Wales and Scotland". A separate document could be written for other languages which have lesser legal status. In answer to the second half of you comment may I refer you to the Gaelic speaking community here where we have a very live Gaelic speaking wiki. Your most important comment are there things we're doing wrongly that we could correct is very honest and needs addressing. If we have ignored wiki-gd thus far, we need to embrace that community, support and encourage them to be part of our dream; more importantly: can we be part of their dream, their vision? A Language Policy to guide us would be a good start. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

The most obvious thing is to ask the National Library of Scotland, as they deal with outreach to non-English minorities all the time for recruitment and the WIR is going to be their employee. It may be time for WMUK to run an open discussion about how best to engage with minority groups, this is more likely to reach meaningful conclusions if supported with advice from minority group organizations and using channels and forums where their members hangout. --Fæ (talk) 06:49, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Exactly! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 08:59, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Also as regards Irish, see Coláiste Feirste, a secondary Irish Medium School in Belfast.86.157.228.106 09:26, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes indeed! Is there legislation for the Irish language in Northern Ireland? Do you have any other links, relevant to writing a language Policy? Llywelyn2000 (talk) 10:17, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• Of course there are laws that we and our partners and potential partners need to follow, but we also need to remember that we are part of a global movement with a global mission. We have a huge amount of the world's heritage in the possession of UK GLAMs, and in many cases as with Tipu's Tiger and the British library's Canada collection we can be the facilitator to get global access to cultural information that is in the UK. Helping UK institutions reach out to non-English speakers here, as tourists or on the web could be at the heart of what the Wikimedia movement associates Wikimedia UK with. Jonathan Cardy (WMUK) (talk) 10:54, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree it would be great for WMUK to be known for the internationalism of our work with cultural heritage; and as you highlight we already are. Over the weekend we met with WMIN representatives to take this particular relationship forward due to obvious shared heritage with key assets in the British Library and other institutions that are of immense value for Indian culture and history. Similarly the initiatives you mention that I took part in sponsoring are great examples of simple international partnerships working within our movement.

We are a highly successful global movement, however we do not lead the field with expertise in multi-lingual outreach or accessibility, in fact, at times we are naff at it compared to other global organizations of volunteers. We had a successful global conference in Milan, however the conference materials and presentations were almost entirely in English and the conference venue and social venues failed to assure wheelchair access, even though we knew that one participant was restricted to a wheelchair (I'm aware of the issues that came up as I took some time out for a quiet and interesting chat about access with the person affected). As an example of our maturity along these lines, I think this is fairly normal for us, and even though we can probably think of counter-examples where it has worked much better, this has not yet transferred into policy and standard practice. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

From my experience of Wikipedia I thought that creating policies was something that comes naturally! But seriously though, I’d suggest that WMUK has some sort of guide at the very least if not a policy. Formally informing the Gaelic and Scots wikis of this post at the same time as the English one would have just been common courtesy. I don’t for one minute think there was an intention to insult, but its little oversights like this that tends go get people's back up and rightly or wrongly add to the perception that WMUK is more focussed on one langue wiki over others. IF it is agreed that a language/languages guide or policy is a good idea, then the Estyn Llaw project in Wales has a wealth of advice and guidance, some of which can be taken on board and adapted. Here are some suggestions (of mine) on how to draw up a guide:

Theme	Level (easy, tricky, wishful thinking!)	Example	Advantage	Risks	Obstacles	Solutions
Attracting staff with bilingual skills	tricky	Attracting Gaelic speakers to apply for WIR post	*Make good use of Gaelic material at NSL *Increase content on Gaelic wiki			Post notice on Gaelic wiki (!)
Organising events	easy	If arranging a series of events in Wales, arrange a proportion of them through the medium of Welsh	*Attract new editors in that language *Increase content on Welsh wiki		WMUK staff does not speak the language	*Ask local volunteers to help *If a GLAM type event, ask if partner organisation has Welsh speaking staff
Organising events	easy	If one event in Wales, make Welsh visable, e.g. have publicity/posters/webpage bilingually, greet guests in both languages	*Attract new editors in that language *Increase content on Welsh wiki		WMUK staff do not speak the language	Ask local volunteers to help *If a GLAM type event, ask if partner organisation has Welsh speaking staff
Publicity	easy (ish)	If promoting event/story related to Wales , send out press release in English and Welsh	Increase likelihood of story in Welsh language media	*Translation could mean delay *Translation could mean cost	WMUK staff do not speak the language	(cost) Ask local volunteers to help (time) Give volunteers plenty of notice

Anyway, just some thoughts/ ideas I wanted to share!--Rhyswynne (talk) 13:13, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

• As a general rule I think we should work starting with existing Wikipedian communities, rather than trying to build from scratch. This is what we have successfully done in Wales, & pretty much failed to do with the "non-native" language communities in the UK. As far as I can see the level of activity on the Gaelic WP is really very low, & most editors are probably based in the relatively Gaelic-speaking areas. We don't AFAIK have an inside contact, equivalent to Robin, which is an essential first step; then we'd be able to announce things to the Gaelic WP in Gaelic, which of course we should do with things like this. By all means add it as a desirable thing for the Edinburgh post, but I don't see we need a policy. Johnbod (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Of course, it depends what we mean by policy. We don't want to break anybody's balls over this and we don't want a load of legalistic verbiage. But some kind of direction would be useful. I think Rhyswynne's table is an excellent start for that and I also agree with Johnbod that working with existing Wikimedian communities will help in a lot of respects. Yaris678 (talk) 17:08, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
• FYI elsewhere in Wikimedia, these languages don't even have dedicated Wikisources yet. I mention this as the original conversation brought up "Gaelic manuscripts and books" and "Scots classics" at the National Library of Scotland. Multilingual Wikisource covers them, however. Gàidhlig currently has a glorious one text (and, even then, has no source for it), while Kernewek has twenty texts and Gaeilge has many. Scots is actually part of English Wikisource, with 22 texts. This doesn't even need material from NLS to rectify, the Internet Archive has at least a few works available (Example). It just needs people. (NB: All appear to have Wiktionaries but Gàidhlig Wiktionary looks to be in bad shape.) - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

  Further to this: NLS have a section on the Internet Archive but all their texts appear it have CC-BY-NC licences (even the clearly PD-old Victorian works). The copyfraud is easily ignorable but it would help if they didn't do that. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

I've created a DRAFT Welsh Language Policy here based on the Language Commisioner's recommended template: Help Llaw. To keep everything together I suggest that any comments be kept here at the Water Cooler! I also suggest a new second policy to follow, should we agree on this one, based of the Scottish Gaelic. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:37, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Apart from any specific issues that I may have with your draft, I would say that this is not the sort of policy we want. It is a statement of something that looks like a good idea, rather than an analysis of problems, opportunities or options. I much prefer Rhyswynne's table because it is a good start at an analysis of what our options are. Yaris678 (talk) 13:36, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

WMUK should have both. Strategic policy and an operational action plan are different things; albeit things that should work together. The draft has a lot that Rhyswynne's table misses (and probably couldn't include) such as communication in Welsh. That does, however, bring up a potential problem: WMUK is not a large organisation and does not, to my knowledge, currently employ anyone fluent in Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Cornish etc. A commitment to answering communications in Welsh and without a delay is probably a bit too much (even with Google Translate available), especially if extended to the other native languages of the UK. Defining it as an aspiration but acknowledging the potential for a delay might be more realistic. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 16:49, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

Another thought: Putting something on the Main Page about language coverage would be useful. Just a footer box, along the line of the sister links on most wiki projects, would be enough. It would be a natural assumption to read WMUK as WMEngland; something pointing out the wider remit could offset that. When/if other-language pages are made for this wiki (eg. Main Page/cy) they could be linked from here. In the meantime it could just be a simple selection of relevant languages (or possibly links to the the assorted projects within those langagues, as long as no suggestion of possession or authority is made). - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that putting something on the main page about language would be useful.

A commitment to answering communications in Welsh and without a delay is clearly impractical at the moment... but maybe it would be a good target to aim for... or maybe we should spend our energies on something else. It's difficult to know when no analysis is included. If we did make it a target then knowing why it was a target would probably be a lot more useful than knowing that it was a target. And, of course, setting out some actions to meet the target is also essential, 1. so it isn't just wishful thinking and 2. so we can look at those actions to assess how much effort it will take. Maybe we want to commit to it if it is straight forward but not if it is really complicated. And that is just that bit of the policy. Maybe other bits of it are equally open to question... but it's difficult to know because we don't know why they are in there. Do you see my point? Yaris678 (talk) 21:28, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

My table was only just a sample of what could be included. The draft contains parts that could be implemented right away (e.g. the 'Planning' bit) while some parts may never be adopted. I'm not sur ehow WMUK goes about drawung up policies/guidleines, but how about breaking the draft down to a similar table with a column for people to accept/oppose each 'theme' and cite reasons. --This comment was added by Rhyswynne at 08:40, 25 April 2013‎

Syniad da Rhys. Dw i'n awgrymu fod hynny'n digwydd rwan, efallai ar dudalen ar wahan i hwn fel bod pawb yn medru ei ddeall. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

This table is a great start. I suggest that Rhys uploads it onto his namespace so that we can all amend and discuss it there. I also like the suggestion that we replicate and translate WMUK's home page into Welsh asap, with a link to two or three fluent Welsh speakers who could discuss with members, potential members and users in Welsh, if that is their preferred language. In fact a number of WMUK's staff and Board members have suggested this over the last year. A bilingual article was actually published in our Report Section.

The question of why we need to do this (asked by User:Yaris678) can be answered in many ways: Dafydd Iwan's poetry mentions that only a fool asks "why is snow white"? Another answer would be because it is there, but crucially: to respect the wishes of members or users who prefer speaking in their own language or because there is legislation in Wales endorses it, and will in the next couple of years demand it, as they do with the main institutions and local government. Another reason of course is that WMUK in Wales can seem to be, to many people, a very foreign creature, and that may be the reason why the Scots Gaelic and the Welsh language (apart from a handful of us) do not bother joining let alone participate. But my personal reason why we need to do this is that we need to reach out with our vision and enthusiasm to people who are much happier speaking Welsh and I we must respect that choice or alienate them. It's part of a worldwide movement which strives for the conservation of the rich diversity of culture on this planet; the opposite is a Big Brother, totalitarian, monotone-grey, state.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, my suggested action plan involves the only two languages which are indigenous to the countries of Britain and which are protected by legislation: Scottish (and Irish?) Gaelic and Welsh. Once this is in place we can look at other languages. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 12:52, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

You've given some reasons to do a lot more in the area of non-English languages but not necessarily reasons that lead us to what that should be. I think everyone agrees that we want to improve things in the area of non-English languages. We are just trying to work out what to do. Your reference to a totalitarian state is dangerously close to Reductio ad Hitlerum. Yaris678 (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

Presumably the first and easiest tasks would be to create a few core pages in each language on this wiki. The main pages are obvious and it will probably help if a few other important pages are done too (perhaps Membership, Events, Contact us and Board). I would signify language with a subpage (eg. Main Page/cy, Main Page/sco, Membership/cy, Membership/sco etc.) but if anyone has a better idea please say so. There appear to be enough Welsh speakers here to handle that set. Perhaps others could be found on the appropriate projects; the Scottish ones could come out of the NLS WIR. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 18:01, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Thanks AdamBMorgan, I've now translated around five of these suggested pages, as testspace; please feel free to amend the links etc.

AdamBMorgan said: A commitment to answering communications in Welsh and without a delay is probably a bit too much (even with Google Translate available)... One possible answer to the fact that staff at HQ do not speak fluent Welsh is to pass on any such communication to any one of the 120 fluent Welsh speakers who edit the Wici Cymraeg regulary; I certainly would be willing to answer any phonecalls, emails or other correspondance passed on to me and I know that other would also do this. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:41, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Table of language scope

English	(English)	en	Wikibooks, Wikinews, Wikipedia, Wikiquote, Wikisource, Wikiversity, Wikivoyage, Wiktionary
Cymraeg	(Welsh)	cy	Wicipedia, Wiciddyfynnu, Wicidestun, Wicidaith,[1] Wiciadur
Scots	(Scots)	sco	Wikipædia, Wikisource,[3] Wiktionar[1]
Gaeilge	(Irish)	ga	Vicipéid, Vicíshliocht,[1] Vicífhoinse,[2] Vicífhoclóir
Gàidhlig	(Scottish Gaelic)	gd	Uicipeid, Uicitobar,[2] Wiktionary
Kernowek	(Cornish)	kw	Wikipedya, Wikisource,[2] Wiktionary
Gaelg	(Manx)	gv	Wikipedia, Wikiockleyr
Englissh	(Middle English)	enm	Wikipædia,[1] Wikisource,[3] Wiktionary[4]
Ænglisc	(Old English)	ang	Ƿicibēc, Ƿikipǣdie, ǷicicǷide,[1] Ƿicifruma,[3] Ƿikiƿordbōc
Multilingual		mul	Wikimedia Commons, Wikidata, Wikispecies
[1] This project is on the Incubator - [2] This project is part of Multilingual Wikisource - [3] This is part of English Wikisource - [4] This is part of English Wiktionary

Spinning off from my comment above, I've started this table of UK languages and associated wikiprojects: {{Projectslang}}. This table just lists native languages at the moment, not the significant non-native languages like Polish, Punjabi or Urdu. It also doesn't list the currently unsupported native languages like Angloromani and Shelta. Two extinct languages are included because there are Wikimedia projects in those languages. The bold names link to potential main pages and there is some minor language switching in the bracketed language names (assuming the subpage name is the language code). The, currently unlinked, footnotes will need to be lang-switched too (and the method of doing so can stand to be upgraded too).

As for why bother with this, this can be placed on an appropriate languages page (or pages, as there really should be one of those for each language) or, if suitably amended, on the main page. It shows what languages Wikimedia UK could/should support and what projects could be supported as a result. It also at least acknowledges that these languages and projects exist, compared to the very English-Wikipedia-only appearance of WMUK at the moment (of course, the demographics are likely to always push in that direction).

Feel free to amend or ignore as desired. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

I know Isle of Man is not technically in the the UK, but where would Manx fit in?--Rhyswynne (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

A great spinoff! I'll amend it a little on the Wicipedia Cymraeg; really useful. Thanks. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:29, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Hi Adam, thanks for putting this together. I would be cautious and spell out that this is not intended to limit Wikimedia UK if this table, or similar, is used in relation to the projects of the charity. The charity's scope is not limited to current or past "native languages" and there may be value in finding figures for all non-English languages in the UK as a basis for judging how much impact new project proposals might have for the beneficiaries of the charity (not restricted to people in the UK). As has been mentioned previously, statistically Polish is one of the highest used languages in the UK today, so encouraging Polish readers and writers to take part in our projects is probably an easy win. I doubt there is any need to make a choice between approaches, as it makes sense for us to aim to be as inclusive and diverse as possible. Cheers --Fæ (talk) 08:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Fæ, I can appreciate that table might give the impression of limiting the scope of the chapter if it were used in the wrong way. But so long as we are mindful of that risk it should be manageable.

I think some of the recent ideas generated by Adam and Llywelyn have been excellent and fit well into WMUK being a volunteer-led organisation. I really like the idea of mobilising volunteers to represent WMUK in non-English languages.

Adam, Llywelyn, what do you think of the idea of doing a specific media training session in Wales for Welsh speakers who would like to represent WMUK to Welsh-language Media? This is just an idea I have now, but if we speak to the right people I think we should be able to persuade them.

Yaris678 (talk) 19:48, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

Interesting suggestion, I'd support that. It would be cool to have snippets of the odd event/workshop in Welsh on video too. :-) --Fæ (talk) 19:52, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

@Yaris678 That's exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see, although at this stage, the number of takers is likely to be low, but I'm sure that there would be demand for a Training-the-Trainers course through the medium of Welsh.--Rhyswynne (talk) 10:13, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

In fact this was discussed in the last meeting of Wici Cymru, a society to further the cause of the Wiki family in Wales. Rhys and myself have done some research into who could deliver such training. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 11:16, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Nice to see this initiative being progressed positively. I left a comment about it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales but it has largely been superceded by events. Obviously, with 20% of the population of Wales speaking Welsh, the importance of addressing the non-English (official) native languages is a real one for Wales in particular! As for the non-native (but widely spoken) languages such as Bengali and Polish, I would imagine they will be contributing in projects other than Wikimedia UK, if any, in these languages. Sionk (talk) 14:15, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree that Welsh deserves more attention than some languages since it is the second most widely spoken language in the UK.

I think that you have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere when you say "As for the non-native (but widely spoken) languages such as Bengali and Polish, I would imagine they will be contributing in projects other than Wikimedia UK". Wikimedia UK exists to promote free knowledge for all. It can do this in a number of ways, but one of the biggest things it does is encourage people to work on projects run by the Wikimedia Foundation, which include the Bengali Wikipedia and the Polish Wikipedia.

Yaris678 (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

FYI, English, Welsh (562,000) and then Polish (546,000) are the most widely spoken languages in the UK, (from the 2011 census) closely followed in order:

1. Punjabi 273,000
2. Urdu 269,000
3. Bengali (with Sylheti and Chatgaya) 221,000
4. Gujarati 213,000

Scots is lagging with 100,000 speakers, which is on a par with Irish in Northern Ireland at 95,000 speakers. Whether this should or should not influence our projects is open to debate and interpretation. --Fæ (talk) 17:50, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

There's an old page at Language support, which could be a good home for this new table. with Fæ's numbers, I think the reference is [1]. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:25, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

The number of Welsh or Gaelic speakers is irrelevant to this discussion, imho. The crux of the matter is that these two languages have an important legal status given through Acts of Parliament. Please read my preamble to this thread:

Our Policy on Scotland must begin with the Gaelic Language (Scotland) Act 2005 and Bòrd na Gàidhlig who are responsible for Gaelic on behalf of the Scottish Government. Wales has similar, yet stronger, legislation (including the Welsh Language Act 1993 and the National Assembly for Wales (Official Languages) Act 2012) which gave the Welsh language official status in Wales - and I suggest that we also include Wales in our Policy, under a separate heading. In Wales the Welsh Language Commissioner ensures that "In Wales, the Welsh language should be treated no less favourably than the English language" and "Persons in Wales should be able to live their lives through the medium of the Welsh language if they choose to do so."

Example: A person who wishes to speak in Punjabi at a Crown Court in Cardiff or London would be given a translator; a person who wishes to speak in Welsh at a Crown Court in Cardiff (or Caernarfon) would be given a full hearing through the medium of Welsh.

Wales is a small nation, with few speakers of it's language remaining. Therein lies it's greatness and vitality, it's still live and kicking; WMUK recognises this, as well as it's legal status. Can I suggest we now move on by 1. getting the WMUK website's homepage up and running (I translated it a few days ago) 2. we continue to work on Rhys' plan, using it as a working document 3. we do the same with Scottish Gaelic. Then we pause for breath. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 05:57, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree that it would be great to have the page translation tab thingy up and running for the main page at least (you can see an example of what the multiple translations looks like at meta:WCA). As well as the legally recognized Welsh, which as Robin highlights should be a priority (and is easy for us to implement thank to Robin's commitment), it would be brilliant to find some additional volunteers that would enjoy helping with Polish and the South Asian languages (/me thinks of our special partnership with WMIN, I think Pranav is a member of WMUK, someone drop him a note!). I am keenly aware that if we can get some tame volunteers to regularly help with free translations, this is a great asset to our GLAM relationships. ;-) --Fæ (talk) 07:34, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I think Marek69 speaks Polish (he often attends the London meet up and I think he's a WMUK member). I should point out at this stage that I personally have no strong language skills beyond English (although I have family fluent in Welsh and Polish, it's just not in my bailiwick). Some other notes:

1. I moved the template above to {{languages native}} and created a sister temple in {{languages immigrant}} based on wikipedia:Languages of the United Kingdom.
2. I added Manx to the native table on the grounds of "close enough". I was a little worried when I noticed Old Norse and Norn Wikipedias in the incubator but they both appear to have been rejected, so I've left them out for now.
3. I have hijacked/updated the Language support page Mike Peel mentioned above and included the two tables. Since I was making tables anyway, I summarised to existing statistics on that page into {{language stats}} and updated them. (These are all templates instead of entering the tables directly so they can be used on equivalent pages for each language and still only need to be updated once each.) I hope the blurb around the tables, about legal duties and moral responsibilities, is OK; it was a little presumptuous but I needed to put something in there. Please edit if not.
4. I know I suggested using a subpage to indicate language (eg. "Main Page/cy") but would it be better to use the appropriate translation instead (eg. "Hafan")? There are potential problem with this, such as the Scots translation of "Main Page" being "Main Page".
5. Depending on the last point, is there any objection to Llywelyn2000's Llywelyn2000/Template/Main Page going live on "Main Page/cy" or "Hafan"?
6. Llywelyn2000's suggestion of having volunteers answer communications seems worthwhile. Would/Could WMUK keep a list of these volunteers as points of contact or for translation services?

NB: Apologies for not replying to this thread for a while but other things kept coming up. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 11:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Things have continued to come up but I have taken apathy as agreement and implemented a few more thngs. See Cateory:Cymraeg and Category:Scots for the only non-English pages on this wiki at the moment. Also, Main Page/cy is in place based on a template created by User:Llywelyn2000. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:38, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

The WMUK tech committee are discussing adding a translation extension on this wiki which will allow a Welsh user interface and make translating things into Welsh much easier, using a system similar to http://www.kiwix.org/wiki/Translation. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 11:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

That would be good, and help support possible non-English speaking (or fluent) WMUKers. (Not to mention at least making them feel welcome and suupported by the chapter.) - AdamBMorgan (talk) 11:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Requirements

• Background knowledge of the Wikimedia movement
• Ability to shape and actively guide the dialogue
• Willingness and ability to travel world-wide
• Skills in inter-cultural communication
• Good written and spoken English skills, favourably also in Spanish

and possibly other languages

• Knowledge of project management and interview techniques
• Ability to work independently and remotely
• Attendance at this year's Wikimania 2013
• Experiences in survey design and data analysis are nice to have
• Be more of a story collector than a story teller ;)

Please apply until June 10, 2013 via email to nicole.ebber@wikimedia.de and include

• a short motivation letter
• an overview of your experiences in this field
• a short description (max. 1500 characters) of what your first steps

in this project would be

• your earliest entrance date
• your time availability (full-time, part-time)

Find all the relevant information on the meta page. I am available for all your questions and input, feel free to get in touch or leave comments on the talk page.

Cheers, Nicole

[1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapters_Dialogue

Why did you volunteer or become a member? Why should anyone else?

Hi all!

I've started a drafting page today (see here) to put together the content and ideas for a dual purpose handout the chapter can use to get expressions of interest from volunteers or potential members.

You can all help massively by dropping by and adding a sentence or two about how either volunteering and membership has led to interesting experiences, projects, or other outcomes. Also, I'm happy for use to draft section content - what would YOU say to get people to get involved?

There is no hard deadline on completing this, though I will probably be running around at the AGM session on writing the new members pack asking similar sorts of questions, so I would hope to see the first draft of that and this ready by the end of June!

Ping me on talk page or email me if you have questions - happy to answer and listen to advice :-)

Katherine Bavage (WMUK) (talk) 10:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

List of UK meetups

I have just come across m:Meetup/UK, a page listing UK meetups. Could someone also transwiki the page to the WMUK site? WKUK should keep in touch with as many local meetups as possible. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:46, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Michael, several us endeavour to keep WMUK's events list up-to-date, including meetups. I agree it's extremely important for the chapter to keep in touch with these informal groups as there's a lot it could do to help them with their Wikimedia activities and they're effectively a ready-made supply of volunteers across the country (hint to any staff or trustees who haven't been outside the M25 for a while ;) ). Harry Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:12, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Ada Lovelace 2013

Hi All, I am working on setting up an Ada Lovelace event for 2013 - for now together with FindingAda we are feeling the ground to see if there is interest for running small events WMUK could support (via a blog post [2]. A while before there is progress, but if you are interested in helping get in touch. Daria Cybulska (WMUK) (talk) 10:36, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Does my Y chromosome disqualify me? If not, I'm happy to help setting something up. Harry Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 15:14, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Not at all. Let me know what stage of organising you are interested in. Daria Cybulska (WMUK) (talk) 14:04, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Do you think it would be a good idea to get in touch with the Girl Geeks? This seems like something they'd be interested in. Yaris678 (talk) 16:07, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The Manchester cohort is already working on an event for October - I will be letting you know! If you have contacts for other groups, it would be good to get in touch. Daria Cybulska (WMUK) (talk) 17:02, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Board Election questions

Only 5 days to go, and only 2/9 candidates have left any answers to the questions (at WikiConference UK 2013/Elections/Questions), which is very disappointing! I'm not going to Lincoln, & might otherwise be voting now. Past experience suggests that the electorate read answers carefully, and candidates who don't respond, or do so very late, lose votes as a result! Johnbod (talk) 13:24, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Towards a five year plan 2013-18/Draft goals

Ahead of this weekend's AGM a new draft of the five year goals has been put up. It would be great to discuss the strategy at the AGM, and in the meantime comments are more than welcome on the talk page. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 16:01, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

OSM State of the Map scholarships

Wikimedia UK is planning to offer two (2) scholarships to OpenStreetMap's State of the Map 2013 conference, taking place on 6-8 September in Birmingham. Applicants must be based in the UK and be a contributor to both OSM and Wikimedia. Please see OSM State of the Map scholarships for more details. The deadline for application is this coming Monday 10 June 2013. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 11:24, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Welsh main page

In case people miss it above, Main Page/cy now exists. It would help if someone with the appropriate authority could check it out. If everything is OK, please can someone add {{language bar}} to the English-language Main Page and Membership, otherwise no one will know about the non-English pages and site navigation will be difficult. Cheers, AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Adam, this looks great! I'm really pleased that someone has taken the time to put together something in Welsh. I do have a quick question which you may be able to help with. Firstly, is there any intention to populate the Welsh language version of the homepage with the content from the blog or the events section? If so, how will this be maintained? Also, the page links to the Wikimedia UK Twitter and Facebook, which is great. But I don't think we're able to Tweet in Welsh at the moment. Is there an alternative Twitter that could be used? I don't know if @WikimediaCY (or similar) exists. If not, could be worth registering one for all things Wici - we can encourage followers for the account, too. Of course, if we have a follower or two that are fluent in Welsh and are willing and happy to translate tweets into Welsh then we can, of course, share those. Thank you! Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:35, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I actually have very poor language skills, so I can help with structure but not content. Communicating in Welsh looks like a job for Llywelyn2000 or Rhyswynne. Further up this page Llywelyn2000 did write, "I certainly would be willing to answer any phonecalls, emails or other correspondance passed on to me and I know that other would also do this." I expect there is an intent to populate the page but that might partly depend on WMUK's communication policy. For example, how do you want it to work? They should also know if there are any preexisting Wici social media. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 16:20, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi both. Let's keep things simple for now. I suggest the page goes on as it is. Yes we Tweet in Welsh - it's called Trydar, yes we could translate the WMUK Blog and WM Foundation link, but let's keep it simple. The Office have my phone numbers, email etc and could in theory ask me to discuss any Welsh language queries on their behalf, should they wish to do so in the future. All that's needed now is a link from WMUK's home page to this. Let's then discuss whether we can take it further in any way. Any internal dialogue can be done in English; this Welsh home page is a statement of intent, a warm welcome for potential members and enquiries and a recognition that our community is inclusive and that these islands of ours (which are today called UK) has a rich, diverse, colourful rainbow of different cultures and people. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 17:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Blog: Ideally, it would be nice to have blog posts in Welsh, but for the time being, having English language blog posts appear on the Welsh version is OK IMHO. I couldn't personally promise to be able to translate them into Welsh (even with a flexible timescale), although having posts in Welsh could provide WMUK with a good avenue for publicity, as the aggregator Blogiadur gathers RSS for a wide range of Welsh language blogs/news sites and has decent readership - something to consider. Posts don't have to appear simutaneously, so timing isn't all that important.

Twitter: I've set up @wicipedia which automatially pumps out RSS for new articles created on the Welsh Wicipedia. Its not pretty, but its better than nothing. Again, having a Welsh account for WMUK would be nice. As WMUK's tweets don't appear on the wiki (as far as I've seen) this isn't such an issue for this discussion, but we have two opptions:

1. WMUK press officer e-mails content of Tweets to Llywelyn2000 or/and myself, and then sends out the tweet (on a Welsh WMUK account) when one of us finally get round to translating it. As tweets are so short and only 2-3 a day are sent out, it should not be a burden. The first one to translate should 'Cc' the other translator in the reply in case we duplicate work for ourselves.

2. Llywelyn2000 and I could get access to the WMUK_cy Twitter account and just translate and then tweet ourselves when we see something appearing on the English account (problem here is trusting us with access, and we have to be sure we don't miss anything - I sometimes only check my Twitter account every few days and I don't think Llywelyn2000 currently uses the service at all.

Both these are issues that can be incorportated in the proposed Welsh language police/guide discussed above, something I'm hoping to work on in a few weeks. Thanks again Andy for your work thus far.--Rhyswynne (talk) 09:59, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

It's just occurred to me that the Welsh language homepage could use a Welsh language banner. If someone could post the text here - "Supporting free and open knowledge" - in Welsh then I can create the image. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 12:00, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Cool. "Yn cefnogi gwybodaeth agored a rhydd" --Rhyswynne (talk) 13:04, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Done. I used Linux Libertine (OC) as font and used the same images as on en. Very unusual to have a "

This file may be copyrighted. It has probably been released under a free licence, but its status is currently unclear.
It may contain text or images that cannot be released under an open licence. It should probably not be re-used anywhere else without the permission of the copyright holder. The copyright status of this file should be updated using either {{Copyrighted}} or one of {{Cc-by-3.0}}, {{Cc-by-sa-3.0}} or {{Cc-by-sa-2.0}}.

" licence! I also added a video on Friday and finished the translation. The new blog needs translating, and a weekly upkeep with dates etc. Let me know if you have comments or suggestions. Thanks to all for your encouragement! Brilliant. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 15:17, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Hello again. Just wanted to drop a note here to congratulate everyone involved in putting the Cymraeg main page together. It looks wonderful and it's marvellous we can now offer the homepage in Welsh. Great job. If there is anyone reading this page who would like to have a go at other languages, that would be excellent! Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:18, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

WLM competition in Welsh

I just noticed the above topic, and it would be great if we could run the WLM competition in Welsh as well as English, especially for the Cadw list. That shouldn't be too difficult to do, if someone would kindly volunteer to do some translations later in the summer :) Would either or both of you be willing to add your names to the Welsh translations team, at Commons:Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2013 in the United Kingdom/People ? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Volunteer strategy

Hi all. A draft volunteer strategy for Wikimedia UK have been posted at Volunteers strategy. Please have a look, comment or even on the talk page rewrite or expand it as you see fit. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 11:08, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia Foundation elections

Hi all,

Now that the Wikimedia UK AGM is over, there’s a couple of other important elections going on within the Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia Foundation is electing three (3) community members to its Board of Trustees, the ultimate governing authority of the Wikimedia Foundation. In addition, the community is also electing two (2) members to the Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC) and also the FDC Ombudsperson.

You can find more information on all of this, including the candidate statements, ask the candidate questions, list of eligibility requirements for voters and information on how to vote on m:Wikimedia Foundation elections 2013.

As the work of the Foundation Board of Trustees impacts the ways the movement pursuit its goals, and the FDC are involved in the grants making process which the chapter was involved in last year and expects to be again this year, I would encourage as many of you as possible to take an interest and vote in these elections.

-- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 12:49, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Review of the Train the Trainers programme

We are reviewing the Train the Trainers programme. The documentation can be found here. Feel free to join in and leave any comments on the talk page. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 16:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Rheolwr Cymru/Wales Manager

Rheolwr Cymru

Mae Wici Cymru a Wikimedia UK yn chwilio am Reolwr i Gymru i ddatblygu'r Wicipedia Cymraeg a Saesneg yng Nghymru drwy ysbrydoli a hyfforddi golygyddion newydd drwy gynllun y prosiect Llwybrau Byw!

Dylai'r Rheolwr fod yn brofiadol mewn: golygu prosiectau Wicimedia (Cymraeg a Saesneg), cefnogi ein gwirfoddolwyr, rheoli personél, gweithio o fewn cyllideb a chyflawni targedau mewn pryd. Bydd y gwaith yn cynnwys penodi a chefnogi hyfforddwyr a threfnu a chynnal sesiynau hyfforddi ledled Cymru.

Mae medru siarad Gymraeg a Saesneg yn rhugl yn hanfodol.

Mae'r swydd am 12 mis a bydd yr ymgeisydd llwyddiannus yn cael ei secondio i Wici Cymru a fydd yn goruchwylio'r gwaith (ar y cyd gyda WMUK, y cyflogwr) a Llywodraeth Cymru fel cyd-noddwr.

Mae'r swydd hefyd yn amodol ar ganllawiau a chytundebau WMUK ac am 4.5 diwrnod yr wythnos. Ffurflen Gais a chwaneg o wybodaeth oddi wrth:

Jon Davies: jon.davies@wikimedia.org.uk ac ar wefan www.wikimedia.org.uk

Cyflog: oddeutu £25,500 - £29,000 yn ddibynol ar brofiad.

Dyddiad cau: 21ain o Fehefin, 2013 am 10 y bore. Cyfweliadau yn Wrecsam ar fore ddydd Mercher y 26ain o Orffennaf.

Wales Manager

Wici Cymru and Wikimedia UK are looking for a Wales Manager to develop the Wicipedia Cymraeg and English Wikipedia in Wales through encouraging and training new editors via our Llwybrau Byw - Living Paths Project.

The Manager must have experience of: Editing Wikimedia projects (both English and Welsh), supporting volunteers, managing personnel, working within a budget, and delivering outcomes in time. The work will involve appointing and supporting trainers, and organising and delivering training sessions throughout Wales.

Fluency in both the Welsh and English language is essential.

The post is for 12 months and the successful applicant will be seconded to Wici Cymru who will oversee the work, jointly with WMUK, the employer, and the Welsh Government as financial partner.

The post is subject to Wikimedia UK's guidelines and contracts and is for 4.5 days per week. Further information / application forms are available from:

Jon Davies at jon.davies@wikimedia.org.uk and on www.wikimedia.org.uk

Salary: In the range of £25,500 to £29,000 depending on experience.

Closing date: 21st of June, 2013 at 10 a.m.

Interviews to be held in Wrexham on the morning of Wednesday June 26th.

Applications are welcome. The closing date is 10 am on the 21st of June 2013. Applications cannot be accepted after that date. Interviews are planned for the morning of 26th of June 2013 in Wrexham. Candidates need to be available for this.

For an application form, please email jon.davies@wikimedia.org.uk

Full details

5 Year plan last call for suggestions

http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Towards_a_five_year_plan_2013-18/Draft_goals

I will be creating the version to be discussed and approved by the board at its meeting in July, next week. So any more comments please. Thanks Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 09:25, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Reviewing Train the Trainers.

All - please have a look at Training/Consultation (We have re-named this page as it may have been a little lost amongst all the other pages). I am looking at how the Train the Trainers project has worked so far and would welcome comments.

Those who have been through it will be asked to fill in an additional survey that will form part of the report. I will then be reporting to the July Board meeting. Thanks, Jon

Martin Poulter stands down as an Associate

In August 2012 the WMUK Board voted to appoint Martin Poulter as an Associate of Wikimedia UK so that the charity would continue to benefit from his experience after he stepped down as a Trustee. Since then he has supported our education work as an active volunteer and attended several board meetings to report on his work. Owing to a job offer that could conflict with this role Martin has now stood down as an Associate. The charity wishes him good luck. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 14:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Editing on fashion topics to become fashionable?

The Netherlands Chapter had a really good session on editing their pages on fashion subjects. According to those who attended it attracted a lot of new people the vast majority of whom were women. A key target for us of course. We have some world class colleges in the UK where we could deliver a similar editathon. Does anyone think this is a runner and would you be interested in taking a lead on this? (via Jon Davies) Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 16:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Review of Commons' Scope is now OPEN

I am pleased to announce the launch of a comprehensive review of our existing policy & guidelines on Commons: Project scope, and Commons:Photographs of identifiable people. This is an important review and will cover a number of contentious issues that have recently been extensively discussed both on and off Wiki. As background, you might like to look at these recent English Wikipedia Signpost articles:

• The tragedy of Wikipedia's commons, a Signpost Op-ed by Gigs
• A response to The Tragedy of Wikipedia’s commons, two Signpost Op-eds by me and Mattbuck in response.

Please visit the main review page to take part. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)