Meetings/2008-10-09/IRC

#wikimedia-uk

<Warofdreams> Hi!
<Tango42> somebody may with to voice War
<Tango42> wish
<KTC_> he call talk as long as he's id'd
<Warofdreams> Please!
<Tango42> The ball next to his name is the wrong colour...
<Tango42> that's better :)
<KTC> that was "he can..."
<Warofdreams> it's very quiet in here - is that because everyone's paying such close attention? :)
<mpeel> it's because there's not enough people in here to have a good argument. ;-)
<Tango42> I think it's because I'm the only person here
<KTC> cause only Tango42 is in the meeting, and he's happy with everything ;)
<Tango42> I'll make my presence felt if I need to, don't worry
<Tango42> My 2p: I'd keep the Ltd. then you can say "Wiki UK Ltd, Registered Charity No. 123456" and have everything included in a very short space
<cfp> we won't be a registered charity for a very long time
<Tango42> a few months is not a very long time...
<mpeel> hopefully "a very long time" won't be more than a year...
<Tango42> You need to register as soon as it becomes clear your annual income is going to go over £5000, which it should do in the first year
<Tango42> the registration may take a couple of months, but shouldn't take much longer unless something goes wrong
<Tango42> HMRC will give you a number when you register with them, anyway, so you may want to include that during the interim
<cfp> we'll probably be able to go straight to CIO
<cfp> and who knows when we'll have 5k a year...
<Tango42> We have no way to know how long it will be before they get CIOs sorted out, it could be another year yet
<Tango42> Assuming we do any decent fundraising at all, we should be able to get £5000.
<Tango42> It sounds like WMF will mention us in their next fundraising drive so we should get some of their UK donations
* MrWeeble (n=chatzill@87-194-70-98.bethere.co.uk) has joined #wikimedia-uk
<Tango42> hi there
<KTC> hi
<Warofdreams> hi
<Tango42> You may want to throw in an "advancement of heritage" object in there somewhere, just to increase our options
<mpeel> is "heritage" an in-word at the moment, or something?
<Tango42> charities have to be for the advancement of religion, education, heritage or a combination of the above
<mpeel> ah
<KTC> i think there were more options than that, but yeah
<Tango42> Things like digitising old PD newspapers would be heritage
<Tango42> I can only remember those 3
<Warofdreams> collating [notable] historical info in wiki form would be heritage
<MrWeeble> if we mention the word "wiki" should we not add somewhere what a wiki is, that is a collection of information that is freely and collaboratively editable by it's users. In fact if we phrased it as something like that, it would free us to support collections of information held in other formats (eg OpenStreetMap)
<Tango42> What does #8 actually say in English?
<KTC> :D
<Tango42> It doesn't seem to actually say anything
<Tango42> The powers already include the power to do anything appropriate to further the objects, you don't need to repeat that as an object
<mpeel> it broadens things a bit: if we want to do something that doesn't quite fit into (1-7), but supports it or has benefits towards the company's property/rights, then we can do it.
<KTC> it need to promote the objects of the charity
<Tango42> The charity doesn't exist to benefit itself...
<Tango42> Exercising property and rights comes under powers and is done to further the objects, it isn't an object in itself
<mpeel> that's my current reading of what that item says.
<KTC> i know why it's there
<KTC> it's just the wording can be confusing
<mpeel> concur
<Tango42> All it does it say you can do things to further the other objects, which you can already do
<Tango42> Either it's redundant (as I think it is) or it's not charitable (if it adds powers you wouldn't have without it)
<MrWeeble> should "UK citizens" not be "UK citizens and residents", immigrants should be as much part of the community as those with citizenship
<KTC> um yes
<Tango42> or just "people with a connection to the UK", no need to be restrictive
<Warofdreams> Tango: yes, I like that
<cfp> with a connection is a bit vague
<cfp> but citizens and residents sounds sensible
<Tango42> it's intended to be vague
<Tango42> what is the benefit of being precise?
<Warofdreams> yes, do we want to discourage non-residents/citizens from taking up membership, should they wish to?
<Tango42> I see no reason to
<Tango42> One definition will almost certainly be fair use
<KTC> i agree
<AndrewRT> this particular clause is permissive - wouldn't stop us accepting non-residents or citizens
<AndrewRT> hence "Without prejudice to the generality of the objects stated in"
<Warofdreams> agreed, just a case of what we wish to emphasise
<Tango42> Option 3 seems to be mixing up objects and powers - they are two separate parts of the governing documents. You can add extra powers to the powers section if necessary (I doubt it is, they are very general by default), but you shouldn't have powers in the objects section
<Tango42> "may" refers to powers, not objects. Objects are "intends to" and phrases like that.
<Tango42> shouldn't that "hereof" be "herein"?
<Warofdreams> I believe so
<KTC> *shrug*
<Tango42> Don't you want a "not exclusively" in there somewhere?
<Warofdreams> "... by means which may include all or any of the following:" could cover the "not exclusively" angle
<Tango42> Looks like this meeting is going to be even longer than the last one... how did that happen?
<KTC> cuz we spend exactly an hour _not_ agreeing to the objectives
<Warofdreams> the objectives were nowhere near consensus at the start of the meeting, and we hoped to get them there - but didn't quite
<KTC> we were doing so well before that... :(
<PrEdAtOr> who won? :DD
<mpeel> will objectives get pushed further without someone being nominated to take care of them / have an action on them?
<mpeel> actually, I should ask that in the other channel...
<Tango42> you should
<Tango42> but yes, someone needs to be actioned to take it to the mailing list and report back on the conclusions at the next meeting
<mpeel> we've passed the 2 hour mark...again. :(
<KTC> :'(
* Tango42 thanks the electorate whole-heartedly for sparing hi!
<Tango42> him
<KTC> lol
<KTC> Tango42, i'll make sure i nominate & vote for you in the AGM 
<KTC> ;)
<Tango42> The Articles say "willing to act" - you need my consent to nominate me!
<KTC> i'll forge your signuature. shhhh 
<mpeel> you gave your consent to be nominated easily enough last time...
<cfp> it's fresher's week here (where i'm kind of a fresher for the 3rd time at the same place)... there are certainly other things i'd been planning on doing this evening...
<Warofdreams> this is the third meeting i've been in today, and it's now the longest :(
<Tango42> I can withdraw my consent - I wasn't in full possession of the facts!
<KTC> getting freshers flu cfp ?
<Tango42> I did not expect the time spent in meetings to reach almost 2% of my life!
<mpeel> be glad you haven't entered proper bureaucracy - that would easily reach 102% of your life.
<mpeel> (the extra 2% being working out what to do with the dead body in the committee meeting)
<Tango42> Be thankful for small mercies, huh?
<Warofdreams> Until now, I was just a bureaucrat on Wikipedia itself
<Tango42> (that would have to wait until AOB, wouldn't it? ;) )
<mpeel> hmm; good point... 112%, then.
<Tango42> ok, you have now spent over 20 minutes trying to define one word...
<cfp> yeah yeah...
<KTC> it wasn't me... ;)
<cfp> we have to get these things right.
<Tango42> The blame always falls to the chair in things like this
<cfp> else they'll come back and bite us in the arse down the line.
<Tango42> I know
<Tango42> Still, 20 minutes for one word is not a good rate!
<mpeel> if the community discussed these things at length via the mailing list, and came to a conclusion there, then they probably wouldn't have to be discussed as much in these meetings...
<KTC> Tango42, i had moved on, i was dragged screaming and kicking back to it :P
<Tango42> I know, KTC, you need to stick to your convictions!
<Tango42> Hey, mpeel, you can't blame it on us, that's just not fair. You're the board it is therefore all your fault, that goes with the job title.
<Tango42> We get to complain if you don't consult us, that doesn't mean we have to respond when you do!
<mpeel> lol
<mpeel> criticism taken.
<cfp> these things were always going to take a while to hammer out.
<Tango42> You don't want to call a special meeting every time - just have them appeal to the next meeting whenever that happens to be
<cfp> and since it's we that have the inital legal responsiblity, even if the community had come to a decision it'd still be sensible for us to go over it again
<Tango42> You'll struggle to get a quorum at a special meeting just to decide on one appeal
* PrEdAtOr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
<Tango42> Of course, you would always need to ratify community decisions
<Tango42> You don't want to hold an EGM immeadiately prior to an AGM, that just doubles the paperwork
<Tango42> just say "Any such termination can be overturned by an ordinary resolution." the rest of the articles explain the details of how to do that, including how members can force the board to call an EGM
<KTC> if it say that, the member whose membership is terminated can't attend the GM
<KTC> because he won't be a member then
<Tango42> Yeah, I was just about that say that
<Tango42> you should include something about them being able to make a statement
<mpeel> doesn't 4.4 kick in then?
<Tango42> an ordinary resolution is always of members
<mpeel> * 4.4b
<KTC> mpeel, no, that's at the meeting of the directors
<mpeel> ok, thanks for the clarification
<Tango42> They need to be able to make a statement at the appeal as well as at the original decision
<Tango42> You could just have the chair read of a written statement, rather than inviting them to the meeting
* mpeel gets visions of this meeting lasting three hours
* Tango42 pours a scotch...
* cfp would quite like to call it a night at this point...
<Tango42> It should probably be "seven *clear* days" to be consistent with the rest of the articles
* Tango42 can call it a night at any time he likes :)
<mpeel> as would I, as I think we might be reaching the point where tiredness kicks in and mistakes get made.
<Tango42> a very valid point
<mpeel> ... we would have to arrange to continue the meeting another evening, though.
<Tango42> Simple majority to adjourn, usually (or the chair's agreement)
<KTC> let's finish this point first
<KTC> then yeah
<Tango42> If you don't finish this meeting before the next one, the next one will be horrible
* Tango42 finishes his scotch
<Tango42> That's better. :)
<Tango42> Is that Monday instead of the usual Tuesday meeting, rather than in addition?
<mpeel> instead
<Tango42> It will be another long meeting, then...
<Tango42> I'd start early, if you can
<mpeel> hence why I'm suggesting we start early...
<Tango42> I know, I'm just agreeing with you
<Tango42> KTC is optimistic!
<mpeel> it's always good to be optimistic