Engine room

Welcome to the Engine roomThis is a place to ask questions about how we operate as a charity and Wikimedia chapter, and to discuss organizational issues. To discuss our external projects and activities, see how you could get involved or suggest ideas that could help our charitable mission you should head over to the Water cooler.

2013 2014

Liability insurance for OTRS volunteers

Does WMUK's liability insurance for volunteers cover project activities where we may be corresponding through OTRS and to what extent?

For example, I sometimes add tickets to images to confirm copyright status on Commons and these may be in support of WMUK projects. I am particularly interested in scenarios with civil suits for damages against our volunteers from correspondents who may feel they have been treated badly or misrepresented or civil suits by the WMF against an OTRS volunteer. It would be useful to have considered responses based on the terms of the current insurance policy (which is no longer available publicly, certainly I do not have a copy) and potentially an official statement from the charity, rather than informal or speculative replies.

I have raised a suggestion for a risk warning notice at m:Talk:OTRS/Volunteering#Liability_and_risk_warning_for_prospective_volunteers.

Thanks --Fæ (talk) 10:24, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK only ever intended to have insurances for volunteers while they are "undertaking activities, officially, on behalf of Wikimedia UK". Acting as a volunteer on WMF OTRS is not, has not, and will never be considered as acting on behalf of WMUK. This extend to Wikimedia project activities in general such as editing Wikipedia, Wikimedia Commons etc. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 13:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the official clarification. There seems a slight contradiction in the statement as a volunteers can and do take part in projects officially funded by Wikimedia UK which are advised to use OTRS as a process for confirming copyright releases, there are many examples and this is a normal part of our official training courses for volunteers. If all WMF OTRS activities are not and have never been covered by our insurance, then this is a definite change in official policy since we first purchased the insurance when I was a trustee. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 13:25, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Fæ. My memory agrees with Katie's. However, if it were part of a WMUK activity then I'd have thought that part of it would be covered, e.g. if someone raised an issue with being advised to contact OTRS then that would be covered, but if someone had been involved on OTRS in processing the release and applying it to the projects then they wouldn't be covered as that couldn't be counted as an action on behalf of WMUK. It would be good to see a clarifying wiki page setting out what counts as a WMUK activity (particularly when talking about 'officially') and what doesn't, though. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 21:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

I will discuss this with our insurers when I am back at work next week. In the meantime, and without documents to hand, my recollection is that volunteering for the WMF as part of the Volunteer response team (OTRS) is not and never has been covered by our insurance. Mike is right that this needs clarification, but in the meantime if anyone has any concerns about whether they are covered for a particular activity, they should email myself or Jon and we'll check. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 22:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Great, thanks, it would be good to have a clear official statement. The documents always used to be on the office wiki as well as previously available to all volunteers on this wiki. I would recommend keeping them on the office wiki so that they are easy to find for anyone with access and so that any trustee, contractor, staff member or others with access can answer questions about insurance for volunteers on our projects.

As an active volunteer can I have a copy of the current insurance policy as it relates to my activities please? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:06, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I will discuss this with our insurers too. Last time I spoke with them, they advised against circulating copies of our full policies, especially online - we wouldn't be able to ensure they were kept securely. I will try and get an answer for you. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 18:19, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I was asked to remove a statement that I had professional indemnity insurance from my website, even though it was a legal requirement for me and everyone else in the same profession to hold it. I think the insurers here are probably more worried that publicising the cover will encourage claims somehow, rather than anything else. Why would the policy details need to be kept secure really? Philafrenzy (talk) 00:56, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Insurance details do not need to be kept secure from the insured parties, in fact I believe there is a legal requirement on an insurance company to provide access to the policy to the insured (i.e. volunteers for Wikimedia UK). My impression from this discussion is that Wikimedia UK has refused to provide a copy of the insurance policy, or access to it, in response to a request from an insured party. As the legal definition of insurance is a contract between the insured and the insurer, if the insurer is now requiring Wikimedia UK to keep the contract secret from the insured, then the contract can be considered invalid.

If someone were to provide me with the name of the insurance company and the policy number, then I am happy to offer to spend my time giving them a phonecall (as an insured party) and provide some factual feedback here, rather than wasting any more employee time on this bureaucracy/game of Chinese whispers. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 06:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Fae, as I said earlier, "I will discuss this with our insurers when I am back at work". I am now back at work, have dealt with the most urgent tasks, and can focus on requests from volunteers: I have also received a reply from the insurers. I must impress upon you the need for patience, this sort of thing can't be hurried.

You will be pleased to know that I have spoken to the insurers and that although they have reservations about making the policy public, I have discussed this with Jon, and we have agreed that the risk to the charity is minimal. I will email you a copy of the policy as soon as I have time - I expect this will be in the 24 hours. You will note that you are probably not covered for the data protection risks that doing OTRS volunteer work for the WMF involves. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 16:05, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Sent! Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 16:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Received. Unfortunately this is not the relevant policy. You have emailed me a copy of the current privacy protection/breach insurance (supplied by Hiscox) that as I recall the charity only started purchasing after the WMF made it a requirement of payment processing. It is a form of technical insurance for data, which specifically excludes liability resulting from any services provided by the charity, so it not only excludes volunteers from its cover, it actually excludes services from employees or contractors.

Could you supply the correct insurance policy that is relevant to the activities of the charity and to which I believe I and all other active volunteers are insured parties? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 17:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course. There are a few redactions I'll have to make, but I'll try and get it to you in the next few days - it's a much bigger policy and is printed on weird embossed paper so I'll need to scan the pages individually (they don't go through the feeder properly). Out of interest, what is it you'd like to check? Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 19:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

As an insured party I would like to exercise what I believe is the normal legal advice that parties to a contract read the contract. I believe all unpaid active volunteers for the charity would be sensibly advised that they should understand and have access to any insurance policy that applies to their activities before volunteering to deliver services or benefits on behalf of the charity. Should I ever be sued for damages when working as an unpaid volunteer for the charity, for example as a result of volunteering to support an editathon, when I have records showing every reason to believe that I am covered by appropriate insurance, I do not want to be caught out by only then finding out that the Chief Executive had made a decision at some point to renegotiate the terms of the policy and not tell me or any other volunteer about it.

That the insurance company Wikimedia UK has chosen as a supplier appears to be putting up apparently arbitrary obstacles in the way of sharing the insurance policy with the insured parties, I find not only bizarre but in all likelihood would be found unacceptable behaviour by the Financial Services Authority. If you are defining policy for Wikimedia UK, it may be worth checking directly with the FSA on this point, rather than relying solely on what might be a misguided middle-manager within the insurance company. --Fæ (talk) 20:47, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

As I have said, I will be sending you the insurance policy as soon as I can. No-one has put up any barriers. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 11:03, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The barrier as described in this thread has been introduced by the insurance supplier by insisting that Wikimedia UK remove the policy from the website, where members and volunteers could easily access it, and volunteers have to ask for a special redacted version to be created which required authorization from the Chief Executive which may or may not be granted based on unspecified criteria and may take several days. --Fæ (talk) 11:41, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

December board meeting

The minutes of the December board meeting are now available at Minutes 7Dec13 and Minutes 8Dec13. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Michael for posting these. It's a shame to see that WMUK has moved away from the good practice of specifying who voted which way on decisions made at the meeting; it's sad that this transparency has been lost. It's good to see that the transparency of the meeting reports will be improved, though. :-) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:17, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Mike, on your first point, I think that this has been happening for several board meetings now. I don't recall why or how it started happening, though. Maybe there was an old board decision that I have forgotten, but if it turns out that procedure has just drifted without discussion then I will ask the board to have that discussion. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:25, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Has it? In past meetings the names have been omitted if it were unanimous, but recorded if anyone objected or abstained. E.g. see the 'Approval of 2012-13 Accounts' section of Minutes 13Jul13 or the 'AM potential CoI' section of Minutes_14Sep13 (of course, it's particularly important to clearly and publicly note who abstains when there's COI issues!). I can't spot a board decision on this issue in the recent minutes... Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the earlier minutes, this does seem to have been drift rather than definite decision. I will bring this up at the next meeting, as we clearly do need to be consistent. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:02, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Mike Peel (talk) 16:30, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I share Mike P.'s concerns; and would also note that "there was an in camera discussion" should be expanded (for example "there was an in camera discussion of staff salaries"; "...of a potential financial donation". Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:17, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

+1, let's not let our the values drift such that we become just a boring, needlessly bureaucratic or opaque charity. --Fæ (talk) 17:00, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

The Engine room needs to look prettier

We need a nice Engine room picture to go on the top of this page. Can we get some suggestions going? We could post ideas here in a gallery. (ps the picture above is disqualified as it appears to show a wheelhouse not an engine room). MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:59, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

• Suggestions for images:

• 

  Suggestion 1

Does it matter if it is a U Boat? Philafrenzy (talk) 19:23, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

So long as I don't have to spend another weekend in a gigantic phallic object dressed as a German sailor. --Fæ (talk) 19:32, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Interesting, Aksel Berg started out as an officer on a submarine, and went on to become one of the pioneers of cybernetics! Leutha (talk) 20:52, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

And was imprisoned by Stalin for three years in the meantime, becoming a government minister immediately on release. Here, it normally works the other way round! Philafrenzy (talk) 22:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Format of the newsletter

Just received the latest newsletter. I know somebody in the office spent a long time doing this so I hope nobody is offended by my comments, but I think we can do a lot better, particularly in presentation. I printed a few pages as a pdf and uploaded them here. This is how it appears on screen in a typical widescreen laptop. I hope we can start a discussion about the appearance and content of the newsletter. Here are my initial thoughts:

• On the plus side, it's much better than it used to be!
• The appearance is clunky and amateurish and not in keeping with what you would expect from a national charity.
• The text wrapping around images is poorly formatted and the acres of white space either side of the content just looks weird.
• This does not look like any other newsletter I get from anywhere. That must mean something.
• It's boring, though that might just mean that we are boring.
• We don't need the message from Jon at the start, you lose half your readers there straight away.
• The content may now be too pared-down.
• It could include a list of upcoming events in the body of the message and some kind of index at the start.
• Should we pay to have properly designed member and donor newsletters prepared?
• I would be interested to know what newsletter donors get, the wrong one could be costing us a lot more than the cost of having a proper one designed.
• As this is the only regular communication with members, it seems a pity not to get it right.

Philafrenzy (talk) 00:02, 8 Janua ry 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this, I felt the last member's newsletter displayed poorly and seemed clunky. As the charity has several professionals employed full time in communications, the member's newsletter is a good chance to demonstrate these skills. --Fæ (talk) 07:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, thanks Philafrenzy for your comments. I think that the member newsletter has come along way in a short space of time - considering that we didn't actually have one until fairly recently. There are some issues with the template which I know Katie is going to be looking at. But I can promise you that I have seen much, much worse. I'm sorry that you find the content boring. What would you suggest to make it more engaging to you? I quite like the mix, and other members have reacted positively, but getting more detailed feedback on what you think works, and doesn't, might be helpful. Also, what do you mean when you say that the content is too pared down? Do you mean in the email leads or the wiki version? It's a good idea to include events in the message and I'm sure Katie will note that for future editions. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Secondly, Fae - could you let me know where those "several professionals employed full time in communications" have been hiding please? Only I feel they aren't really pulling their weight and I'd quite like to have a word with them to see if they can take on a few of the things I don't have time for. If you see them, please pass on my contact details as I'm very keen to speak with them. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:08, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I've said this before in response to the members survey consultation where I responded to both Fae and Philafrenzy at great length. Well balanced feedback should include what doesn't work and what does. Do Philafrenzy and Fae have any positive comments? More importantly, beyond critique, can you offer more time to help improve the content again (not the template) to make it engaging? (I should note you are both past contributors I think (?) already so thanks for that!)

Katherine, could you please remove the implied criticism of Fae and myself in the paragraph immediately above. It's not appropriate as the initial post is intended to start a discussion on exactly the matter of what can be done better and includes several ideas on that subject. Thank you. Philafrenzy (talk) 14:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Now, as to the rest:

There was a competition to redesign the members newsletter banner in July which drew no responses.

The donors newsletter banner was professionally designed in 2012.

The members newsletter has been around for a year now. I believe Katy will be running a survey for feedback as a result. Perhaps it might be best to see if these are personal opinions or more widely reflected?

I don't think a differently designed template is bad idea providing it worked with Civi. Whether its worth doing should probably be based on the survey.

The donor newsletter design will continue to be led by testing results, surveys and feedback. I will be making some proposals in the new financial year (1st Feb) for how this is managed anyway so I'll have to ask you to hold onto your hats until then. Ta Katherine Bavage (WMUK) (talk) 11:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC).

I have responded to the above. My edits, and those of other contributors and employees, have been deleted and can be found in the page history for anyone interested. Speaking as a past Chair, I believe this is the first time that any Chairperson of this charity has chosen to exercise direct censorship on this website without there being an independent request to do so; if this action itself is worth discussing or reviewing, I suggest it is raised in a separate thread. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 14:11, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Action of the Chair to censor comments

I requested it. The The board and chief executive have a duty to protect the working environment of staff. Sjgknight (talk) 14:21, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Simon, thanks for your explanation (which I have broken out to its own thread). I never imagined that tampering with discussion threads on this wiki was a duty of the trustees, I am disappointed to see this is the choice now taken by the current trustees rather than leaving this to the CEO, which as I understood it when I was a trustee was where we agreed the fully delegated responsibility and authority for operational issues including personnel issues and complaints. As I recall, Katherine requested that an administrator look at removing a disguised apparent swearword from a comment by Philafrenzy, this would have been a perfectly reasonable action for an administrator to take. It did not require the Chair to be seen to intervene, and in my view neither did the entire dialogue, including comments from employees, require censorship or suppression.

Just to interject, can I make clear that this was an expression of exasperation about how things work here and not about any particular individual. I remain exasperated and frustrated. I may take up kick boxing. Philafrenzy (talk) 14:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not asking for the "critical" discussion to be restored, I am sure everyone is already tired of it, however I am concerned at seeing our current board of trustees using their authority to override or suppress free discussion of issues on this website or to be exercising their authority over such detailed operation issues that can be easily managed by volunteer administrators, or could be resolved through discussion with the people involved, if necessary by email, who would in all probability have removed their comments themselves if requested. If employees feel that comments are overly hostile, then the process should be that they avoid responding in any such thread and report this to the CEO for his action, rather than asking questions and personally engaging in the creation of a hostile environment.

The members of the charity should and must feel free to raise concerns with the operations of this charity. If we are unable to do so on this "Engine room" or anywhere else on this public wiki, then I suggest we advise members to express their concerns more freely by using the public email list wikimediauk-l, which employees or trustees do not have ultimate control over, even if at least one member of staff is an administrator there and I imagine he would wisely recuse from acting on any issue directly related to criticism of the operations of the charity.

Thanks for your help. --Fæ (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I confirm that members of the charity and volunteers are absolutely free to raise concerns with the operations of this charity, and that this page is the appropriate place for that to happen. I have deleted some text in compliance with the duty of the board, as employers, to protect the working conditions of individual staff of the charity. Neither I nor I hope anyone else will be continuing public discussion on this thread. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:50, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Your actions indicate that members are in fact not literally "absolutely free to raise concerns". Could you confirm that the board's duty as employers with regard to working conditions is fully delegated by the board of trustees to the CEO? If as the Chair and speaking on behalf of the board and responsible for your own actions here, you prefer not to answer any more questions on this topic, then it seems reasonable for members interested to continue this on the independent wikimediauk-l list. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Just to point out: I think this was accidentally removed and added it back, but Fæ has removed it again saying 'Please leave this to the Chair as his action on behalf of the board of trustees. My later comment I would like restored if these are.'. Over to you, User:MichaelMaggs. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:24, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Removing Richard N's comment was indeed a mistake, but he is content to leave things where they lie now. No further action needed. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Please note that this means that you (acting for the board of trustees and overriding the role of the Chief Executive) have chosen to restore employee comments made after volunteers had made responses, without restoring the comments from volunteers; what is left is a partial view of the conversation. I would prefer you to delete the whole conversation rather than misrepresenting me or philafrenzy in this way. If employees are free to express their views and opinions on this website, but not members of the charity, then this is no longer an open wiki. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 10:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Fæ, I've looked through the rest of what was deleted, and I can't see anything that replies to what Richard N. said. Maybe I'm missing something? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:11, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I did not mention replies to Richard N's comment. If you note the times of comments made that have been deleted by the Chair, comments by employees have been restored which were posted after other comments by volunteers that have now been deleted. Consequently the order of events is compromised and the discussion left on display is a misleading representation of events. To avoid misrepresentation any truncation should be to a fixed specific time with an explanation of why, or remove or restore the entire discussion; at the moment what we have is deliberate cherry picking by preferring comments made by employees and suppressing comments made by volunteers (of which only one comment has been highlighted as a possible problem with regard to "protect the working environment of staff", a role that by existing policy is the job of the Chief Executive to implement, not trustees). --Fæ (talk) 11:45, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Noted. I have re-deleted Richard's comment so that the thread is effectively now cut at a single point in time. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:59, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. As you have declined to answer my question with regard to the trustees acting in an operational role we previously delegated to the CEO, I presume this thread is effectively closed. --Fæ (talk) 18:44, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Key Performance Indicators for the Chief Executive

Could a member of the board of trustees please share with the members the top level Key Performance Indicators that the Chief Executive (and the charity) is measured against?

Now that Jon has been in the role for 3 years, it seems reasonable for the members to be able to see this published in a trend report spanning the duration of his employment. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 07:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

The latest information on metrics can be found here. We will not be giving a running commentary before the strategy and metrics are open to public consultation in February, but I can say that the task force has met twice already and is meeting for a time this week. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:39, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Michael. The section you link to mentions metrics but not key performance indicators. It is not an automatic conclusion that the latter would ever be produced from the former. Could you confirm that Key Performance Indicators for the Chief Executive is an intended outcome, and that these will be published and tracked publicly so that the members of the charity can read them? By the way, as a past trustee I am fully aware that these were required as part of Jon's contract agreed three years ago and so are overdue. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 11:59, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

The Water cooler needs to look prettier

We need a nice Water cooler picture to go on the top of this page the Water cooler. Can we get some suggestions going? We could post ideas here in a gallery. -MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:55, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

It's somewhat worrying that the WMUK Chief Exec has enough spare time to add pictures to nearly every section of this page! I'm sure there's much better things to be getting on with... :-( (Plus, they get in the way of leaving comments!) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 07:15, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate Mike's viewpoint. This is a discussion page, and unless the thread is directly connected to a particular image it is not normal on wikis to illustrate each thread as if they were a blog posts. MichaelMaggs' suggestion to put a photo at the top of the page is more in line with the way we see village pumps working on other projects. Although bandwidth is unlikely to me a massive problem for most readers or contributors, several photographs on a long page may discourage readers from accessing using mobile devices and could make the page unreadable or subject to time-outs if they are relying on a lower speed mobile connection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think wiki thumb transclusions like this actually mean that most browsers will download the full size image file before rendering this page, so these images do add significantly to bandwidth and rendering times.

I am sure now Jon has been CE for 3 years, as per the lead item of the member's newsletter, he does not advice with regard to the norms of wikis. --Fæ (talk) 07:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

On the technical point, the images are automatically resized by MediaWiki - there's no downloading the full images. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 08:13, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I’m inclined to think that where there are obvious images it's no bad thing to include them just as we add images to Wikipedia articles (or indeed blog posts). It makes the page more attractive and is minimal work particularly given the images can be used on the pages/events/activities they refer to, if it was lots of extra work certainly that woudld be bad. Given the markup goes at the top of the sections I'm not convinced it gets in the way of leaving comments(?), useful to consider if there are other problems though? Incidentally this discussion should really be moved to the Engine room (i.e. I think the whole discussion around the water cooler image should be there). Sjgknight (talk) 08:30, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

My comment about it getting in the way was because the image here is after the first comment, so my comment was straight after it which was a bit confusing to me. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 08:46, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Ah fair enough, yes I agree that's to be avoided where possible (particularly given it'd be good to have noobs posting on the water cooler!). I think this is the only one on here though. Sjgknight (talk) 08:48, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Mike don't worry it only took a few minutes of time in gaps doing other things. As to the images I am really happy to take tech advice - we don't want people to be put off by download times. On the other hand we need our watercooler to be a busy and buzzing place that is attractive to come to. The thumbnails draw attention to the different subjects and when new things come up help draw attention to them. Our website is sooooooooooooooo boring. If it is to be a way of encouraging new volunteers (and members) it has to be a lot better and this is one tiny step to drag it into the 21st century. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 08:43, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I have withdrawn my post above after this complaint by MichaelMaggs who felt it was sarcastic. My feeling is that Jon's criticism of this site is that it is "sooooooooooooooo boring" and needs to be dragged into this century appears dismissive of Mike's point by trivializing it. I believe Mike and I do live in this century and have quite a strong awareness of modern technology, I doubt we could be considered terribly out of date compared to anyone else who contributes to the charity. Perhaps this aspect of his communication style could be improved? Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:04, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Fae, Jon's comments about the site are appropriate and allude to problems that anybody with a professional background in web usability should be able to recognise, despite your eagerness to trivialise or deny them. Yes you "do live in this century and have quite a strong awareness of modern technology" and it's interesting that that's your case for expertise. This is not to say that adding images to discussion pages is a solution. I agree with what you say below that accessibility is a problem - across all Wikimedia sites, not just this one - and should be a priority. Other points about the appeal and usability of the site deserve the charity's attention too, bearing in mind that the site doesn't exist for its own sake but to showcase our work and invite an ever-growing audience to take part in or support it. Calling for improvements to Jon's communication style is supremely ironic given your quite desperate contributions on this wiki. Take this well-intentioned advice from a friend: that you've lost perspective on what is or is not appropriate communication style. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I have made no case for my expertise, only responded to Jon Davies' dismissive style that I would not expect from the CEO of a national charity. Your comment about "quite desperate contributions" is not friendly; my friends do not deride me in public. --Fæ (talk) 15:59, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for moving this Michael, an unusual case hopefully there won't be too many of this type, but generally I think if people want to talk about the function and form of the water cooler it should go here. Sjgknight (talk) 13:32, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

• Suggestions for images:

• 

  Suggestion 1

• 

  Suggestion 2

Being "pretty" versus ensuring access for all contributors

I ran a short test a couple of hours ago by attempting to reply in the above discussion using an Android tablet. The mobile edit interface is not available (can this be fixed?) so the edit box's behaviour for this website is erratic and becomes unusable, in my experience, for anything other than very short sections. Pretty images can make access more difficult, particularly for mobile devices. I believe mobile access is important, I have often dropped timely replies in discussion on Commons from my tablet and sometimes my mobile phone, this has been particularly useful when stuck on a train and catching up with discussions. Though the recent actions to prettify discussions on this site with tangentially connected photographs may be liked by some, I suggest that we define some basic house-style guides for different types of pages on this wiki, and consider testing our accessibility from mobile devices and tablets to ensure that style guidelines are effective.

It is entirely possible, for example, for the main page of this site to use different css rules, or even display quite a different page, depending on the platform accessing it, and these options are worth considering. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 14:55, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Fae, entirely agree this sounds sensible. From your post it sounds like the issue is the interface in general, not the newly added images, but I'm not sure that's what you mean? Regardless, accessibility for screen readers, etc. is also important and I don't know how we do on that front. Given articles, etc. have inline images there must be ways we can include images in these discussions (whether we want to or not) while still ensuring they're accessible no? I think the tech-committee may have a discussion about accessibility at some point. Sjgknight (talk) 15:00, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I would include images as an issue, as I mentioned in my comment. A house-style guide would cover when images were best used and when not, and may put limits to the types of image or other media file to be transcluded in certain situations. A discussion page may have an entirely different style to a proposal page or a static report. --Fæ (talk) 15:03, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

(EC) Hi Fae, I understand (I think) but I think what I was saying was that your current major issue was just flat out being able to access the mobile interface - not that the introduction of images had created a new problem on that front. Of course the broad point re: good practice for accessibility generally and mobile interfaces stands. Sjgknight (talk) 15:10, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

All good points. Thanks. Any thoughts from anyone as who who might have the willingness and expertise to start work on a page of recommendations? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

I vaguely recall exactly the same discussion a year or more ago with regard to house styles. Mike Peel, our historian, can probably supply a link, or I think there was some preliminary work on the Office wiki by Stevie that you may want to review before starting a new exercise. As this is a closed wiki I do not have access to, I am only going by frail meat-memory.

By the way, I believe that house-styles for communications would normally be under the domain of the communications manager, which though he has changed his title to head of the department of External Relations, is probably still within his remit and would be better managed by him rather than being directed by unpaid volunteers. --Fæ (talk) 15:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Not that I can recall, I'm afraid. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 12:14, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Time is a bit malleable, the discussion could have been 3 years ago. Searching about finds Water_cooler/2012#House_style but no follow-on I can see. I am fairly convinced there is more somewhere on the office wiki, though it may have been part of our preparing terms of reference for some employees, certainly this came up more than once when I was interviewing applicants for the Communications Manager position. --Fæ (talk) 12:23, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Declarations for paid editing and related advocacy

In the light of the recent announcement by the Wikimedia Foundation that paid editing is not acceptable for employees, and the apparent swift termination of a long term employee, I believe it appropriate for the Board of Trustees of Wikimedia UK to agree a policy at the next board meeting to require employees, contractors and trustees to publicly declare any current or past paid editing activities, or related unpaid advocacy that may represent a potential conflict of interest.

The risk to the charity by allowing confidential declarations limited to the board in this area, or to "overlook" past paid editing (even if some years ago) is that a current board member, employee or contractor may be perceived to be deliberately misleading the Wikimedia community. Were this to be exposed then Wikimedia UK may suffer reputational damage if seen to be supporting procedures that protect this secrecy.

Considering the recent resignation of an Arbcom member, after avoiding a public declaration of off-wiki accounts where they were both publicly and non-publicly posting about matters related to Wikimedia projects, I would hope that the board would require employees and contractors to similarly interpret "related advocacy" as applying to "secret" accounts elsewhere whenever they can be seen to relate to Wikimedia projects or Wikimedia UK matters. The board of trustees will already be aware that such undeclared accounts exist.

Thanks --Fæ (talk) 12:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Can you rewrite the first paragraph without assuming that readers already know what you're talking about? Thanks in advance, MartinPoulter (talk) 15:02, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

How about starting with "A long term employee of the WMF has quickly left their employment after it was revealed that they have been editing Wikipedia on behalf of paying clients, a public statement has been issued by the WMF here." If this is still unclear, it might be better to ask on the related thread on wikimediauk-l.

You may find the recent discussion on the Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard or today's article on The Daily Dot helpful for context too. --Fæ (talk) 15:50, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that Fae. I personally wouldn't want to promise that such a policy could be delivered and agreed upon by the next board meeting. But it is a risk the board needs to consider and it should certainly be discussed. Seddon (talk) 22:17, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for taking it seriously. Rather than attempting a full policy, which I agree may take a while if community consultation and a check with employment law is needed, I suggest that the board discuss the couple of basic principles, perhaps as a short resolution statement, along with understanding the WMF's position at that time. With the principles agreed, policy can then be updated as necessary (such as COI policy, trustee code and employment policies). It would be useful from the member's perspective if this could remain as open a process as possible.

Lastly, there is no need for WMUK to have identical policies to the WMF, indeed our independent approach and needs for this governance issue may result in major differences in how paid editing declarations are managed and the circumstances in which they are considered legitimate; for example we may fund projects where contractors support the project, are declared paid editors, and this is part of their valued skill sets. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 23:21, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

I made a reply on the UK email list, and I'd like to add to it here. To get started, I'm a contractor for WMUK, and tomorrow will be beginning fresh contract work on the VLE. So I'm within the scope of what Fæ is raising here. None of my edits on Wikipedia and the other projects has been for pay or other consideration.

Here is what I posted to the list:

/begins

On the details of the Sarah Stierch affair, which has been in the Independent for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Stierch

"Long-term employee" seems not quite right. She had a one-year fellowship in 2012. The Independent report said she was engaged in an evaluation project for editathons, which is true enough. I don't know the full extent of her recent portfolio of WMF activities. Stierch, as the WP article makes clear, is a significant activist over a range of things, and working for the WMF has been part of it. As usual, Wikipedia cannot be relied on for all information one might wish to have.

No doubt the WMUK Board needs to think this through. The implication that the "net" should be cast wide to look for COI, of those involved in the WMUK in any fashion, of course has different sides: a prudential approach is one of them.

As a coauthor of the original (2006) COI guideline on enWP, I have always been interested in the distinctions between "potential conflict of interest" (which is in a sense part of the human condition), perceptions of COI, and concrete "conflict of interest" in the guideline sense. The last of these relates rather precisely to the actual circumstance that someone is editing the project content in such a way as to prioritise outside interests over the best interests of the project. E.g. advocacy where there should be none.

/ends

To move further into the issue: I think there is a potential downside whatever is done, i.e. this is not a situation that can be dealt with simply by process. Let me explain my reasoning on that first. There are possibly unintended consequences of the approach Fæ is proposing, which you could call "clean hands".

And this seems evident in relation to "in residence" positions. One extreme consequence comes from reasoning this way: Wikimedians in residence are typically paid, and are typically editing, so they are paid editors. Now we don't accept that as a case for exclusion of the "in residence" concept, given that Wikimedians in residence are generally exemplary members of the community, of high reputation from the internal point of view, and will in any case know much better than most people what kind of editing is best for Wikipedia and the other projects.

Further, we probably don't accept that WMUK should distance itself from the "in residence" concept, or the people involved. So if they are also applying for staff and contractor positions at WMUK, such positions are going to be a plus on the CV. So far, so good.

But I noticed something about the tender document for the JISC Ambassador position, which is a kind of "in residence with roving brief" position, hence the name. The Ambassador was supposed to coach JISC staff in editing, but not to edit on JISC's behalf themself. The tender being a joint WMUK/JISC effort, this clearly represents a conscious slant in the direction of "clean hands".

I disagree with what was done there. If we actually want to avoid editing that is not only paid, but is advocacy on behalf of (say) an institution, this is the wrong way to go about it. As I have said, the generic "in residence" position in an institution ought to be held by a trusted community member; and it makes no sense to delegate editing about the institution to the staff of the institution, who will have only a fraction of the ideas of what is suitable editing, and far less a stake in the outcome being better for Wikimedia content. Anyone "in residence" will have a reputation to lose if they overstep the line and do advocacy, and I know of one who made it clear at interview that there is such a line.

To sum up: let us concentrate on the outcomes for the projects. We know perfectly well what is to be avoided: the "foreign body" in the community which can exist if there are editors actively cutting across basic content policies. That is why the issue is heated. It will not help, though, if too much finger pointing leads the chapter in the UK to overcompensate. Which in the detailed drafting in the JISC case seems to me to have already happened. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

January seems to show a decline in the number of events

If we examine Events/Archive just for January events, the heyday of Wikimedia UK appears to have been back in 2010-2012 when we doubled the number of events we were delivering each year, though this may be a "January" phenomenon. We have more employees now and claim to have more active volunteers, but the numbers have been static or going down rather than up, let alone doubling. So what do others think these numbers tell us about the organization's growth and performance over the last 3 years, compared to the 3 years before that? In comparison December shows a similar pattern, doubling each year until 2012 when it becomes static. In the last 3 years the budget for the charity has quadrupled, but this does not seem to have resulted in any proportionate growth in this potential Key Performance Indicator.

The table below is a sample and different samples may give significant variation. For a useful Key Performance Indicator for the charity this would need to be turned into a full trend chart of quantity of external events going back over the last 5 years showing the seasonal pattern. Once internal facing events such as board meetings and probably wikimeets are removed, the remaining numbers will be far more meaningful. It's about an hour or two of work to set up and then about 15 minutes a month to maintain as a report for the board of trustees. --Fæ (talk) 08:13, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Year	No. of events in January	No. of events in December
2009	1	1
2010	3	4
2011	6	8
2012	12	14
2013	11	14
2014	8	-

This is definitely an interesting statistic to measure (and it should be measured!), but bear in mind that it's not a measure of what's been achieved, but what has been done. It almost doesn't matter how many events are run if they all achieve a lot, e.g. in terms of number of people impacted by the events, number of new editors, number of existing editors retained due to the event, amount of content produced on the sites as a result of the events, etc. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 06:31, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that counting events is not great, but it is available when hardly any long term external-facing metrics are being published. This comes down to our continued poor and inconsistent measurement of outcomes (as in the purpose of any charity is the new outcomes it delivers to beneficiaries, in our case the benefit to public knowledge, not how many jobs we create, how many partners we have, how many lunches we can get with politicians, or how many articles we can get in the national press). It still amazes me that after more than 3 years of having a full time CEO, he and the board of trustees has yet to agree a set of firm and credible key performance indicators, or any firm performance targets. This makes the job of reviewing the CEO's performance almost entirely subjective and a complex matter of personal judgement of management competence rather than independent measurement. For example, though the FDC bid contains a number of measurable commitments, there is no sense that these are tied to measurement of performance of the charity or the CEO, indeed a number of these measurable commitments have yet to have any official reports. --Fæ (talk) 12:23, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

an interesting and valid debate and we are working hard to establish clear metrics for what we do. Staff and trustees listen carefully to these discussions. One point of correction; I have been CEO for a little over two years not three and whatever my personal merits both outside consultants have commented on how rapidly and well WMUK developed during that period. So let's remember to celebrate our achievements. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 10:41, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Fortunately events have been reported publicly for the last 6 years, it does not require any further hard work to report them as they are already reported. As a Key Performance Indicator (rather than a simple metric) reporting the trend of quantity of external-facing events and their benefits as measurable outcomes for Wikimedia projects is one of the most basic I can imagine. This is a KPI that is cheap to report and effective for trustees to monitor operations, and does not need the clock to be reset to zero, so this means that this year's performance can easily be compared to 2013, 2012, 2011...

Jon, I made absolutely no comment on your "personal merits", re-framing my comment above in this way confuses a criticism of process with a person. Members should be free to highlight issues with the charity's performance or how the CEO's performance can be measured in a more meaningful and transparent way, without it being turned into a defensive argument of personalities. --Fæ (talk) 11:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

1st June is Global Sharing Day

File:I love sharing at republica 13.jpg

Discussion resulting from initial post at Water cooler#1st June is Global Sharing Day

This seems to be a day devoted to reciprocity of asset sharing (car shares, food sharing), rather than preserving the sum of human knowledge. Isn't getting into bed with these people the same as becoming affiliated with Freecycle? I can understand why piggybacking on the co-incidental title of the day might seem attractive from a PR perspective, but this feels oddly tangential to Wikimedia UK's mission. --Fæ (talk) 18:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't disagree more. Knowledge sharing is one of the most important types of sharing there is. If it wasn't then the Wikimedia projects and movement wouldn't have such importance and would have so many people involved. Making the case for free knowledge is one of the most useful things we can do. It can hardly be called tangential. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I did not say that making the case for free knowledge is tangential; I did not serve as a trustee, or help set this charity up in the first place without believing in making the case for free knowledge. Please note my sentence with regard to "getting into bed". I was going by the self description on Benita Matofska's website where it is also clear that Compare and Share is a limited company (not a charity) who no doubt would benefit from adding the Wikimedia brand name value to their portfolio. --Fæ (talk) 19:08, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

The implication being that we shouldn't work with anyone that isn't a charity? This is a global initiative with global participation. It costs nothing for Wikimedia UK to be involved. Why shouldn't sharing knowledge be seen on a par with sharing food or other assets? We talk a lot about member numbers and volunteer numbers. This is the kind of initiative that can take our work to a wider audience that is already interested in the sharing of "assets" - an audience that is more likely to share our aims and values and therefore more likely to become participants in the future. If other people benefit from that - great. Let's make everyone happy. It's worth noting also that it's not that long ago Wikimedia UK was a limited company. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 09:28, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

(Just for reference, WMUK is still a Limited company Stevie, Limited by guarantee.) Philafrenzy (talk) 18:17, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Just saw this Philafrenzy, thanks for that. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 09:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

With a "use of Limited" exemption just to be absolutely clear. By the way, the home page shouldn't be saying "registered in England and Wales", that is a common misunderstanding. It should be just "registered in England". To be fair, it is a very common mistake and a totally harmless one. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:51, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I believe that 'England and Wales' is correct, as both share a common legal and charity registration system. Scotland, on the other hand, has a separate legal system with separate registrations. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:53, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

They do Michael and the certificate of incorporation will say England & Wales but you can and should just say Registered in England No. or Registered in Wales No. since a company can only have one registered address at one time. Anyway, it is not worth paying for legal advice over. Philafrenzy (talk) 23:17, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Philafrenzy. Companies_House#England_and_Wales seems to disagree with you - the "registered in" bit is about which legal area you are registered as a charity in, not where the registered address is. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

That's because they are fed up answering questions about it so it easier to say put E & W, and there is a joint register and common legal system for both as has been said, but the law on this particular matter is a 2008 Statutory Instrument No. 495 titled The Companies (Trading Disclosures) Regulations 2008 which just says at S.7: "Every company shall disclose the particulars set out in paragraph (2) .... the part of the United Kingdom in which the company is registered". E & W is not a "part", it is two parts. England is a part. I rest my case M'Lud. But as I say, not important. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Further, shouldn't the statement simply read "Wikimedia UK is a company registered in England" Or is the term "Charitable Company" one defined in law? I note the capitalisation but the charitable status is mentioned on the next line. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:55, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

They appear to be company number 07494345. It's not clear whether they are for- or non-profit - if they are for-profit then that's definitely something to be wary of, particularly if working with them ends up getting media coverage. But tapping into their community and encouraging them to contribute to the Wikimedia projects would make a lot of sense. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 09:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

The strategy of the Compare and Share private company appears to be to create a viral marketing campaign verging on being a pyramid scheme ("we're asking each partner to bring a network / another partner on board"). They are pushing for partners (as they say on their website) who have a number 1 objective of "Promote yourself"; it is free to become a partner, you just send in your company logo, so this does not seem particularly meaningful. Anyone can create a "National Day" to support a marketing campaign, for example Marmite encouraged a National Marmite Day. Before launching Wikimedia UK events or partnering with an organization, Wikimedia UK should do basic background checks and be able to answer these questions and understand fully what the Wikimedia brand is supporting.

Lastly these are the types of questions (is this a charity? why would we partner with them?) that members should not only be free to ask, but encouraged to raise. At the moment I do not feel members have the least bit of encouragement to raise pertinent questions on this wiki, quite the opposite. --Fæ (talk) 10:51, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I note that all discussion has been moved from the Water cooler (without any attempt at consensus to do so), but not Stevie's announcement there promoting "Global Sharing Day". While there is a governance issue under active discussion, with unresolved directly relevant questions, please move the notice from the Water cooler to be located with the thread, or move this discussion back where it was. Positivity does not mean cherry picking parts of discussions. --Fæ (talk) 11:25, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

There is a link between the two. This isn't about positivity, it's about splitting different types of discussion. Cheers Sjgknight (talk) 11:33, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

No this is cherry picking. Stevie has created a notice promoting "Global Sharing Day", the question raised is whether we should do so. Splitting the two just hides this relevant question. The stated new purpose of the Water cooler is "This is a place to let you know what is happening and to discuss our external projects and activities" - this does not include promoting events for other organizations. Stevie's notice does not fit that description as we have not committed to supporting such an event or joining Compare and Share's marketing programme by becoming a "partner". If the whole discussion thread is to stay on this page, then by the same logic, Stevie's notice should be in the Engine room not on the Water cooler.

Simon, I would like the board of trustees to be alerted to this governance issue, which now appears to be being diffused rather than managed. Wikimedia UK should not lend the Wikimedia brand name to a viral marketing campaign without doing basic background checks such as whether someone is making bags of money out of it somewhere. --Fæ (talk) 11:48, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

"Compareandshare.com is brought to you by Compare and Share Ltd., the leading provider of technology-based solutions for asset-sharing that enables consumers and companies to access and share the world’s under-used assets. Alongside compareandshare.com, we license, build and customise asset-sharing solutions for companies and organizations helping them maximise their unused assets by making it simple for them to connect surplus resources with need." Source: http://www.compareandshare.com/about-us/

My local Tesco also has surplus resources that meet my needs, at least they are open that I am going to have to pay. Philafrenzy (talk) 13:53, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Based on that description, if Wikimedia UK wants to support "resource sharing", then I suggest we do so independently and produce a Wikimedia sponsored website, forum and on-line database for the public to share resources in competition with Compare and Share Ltd. Frankly, none of it looks that technically challenging and it is something that Wikimedia UK could host on its own server. I would say an £100,000 grant would do it and at least *we* would be a charity transparently governing the entire scheme from end to end, with no future advertising and no selling of parallel commercial services piggy-backing on the created brand value. However this would mean a significant change to our charitable mission and scope as originally presented to the Charity Commission, that's up to the board of trustees if they want to fundamentally re-write this charity or stick to the mission of preserving all human knowledge, which already seems a pretty big mission. --Fæ (talk) 17:21, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

I have emailed Compare and Share (they do not give a phone number on their website) asking to confirm whether they are a for-profit or not and whether an annual report is available for me to examine. Considering the blog posts on their website which mentions "pitching to a number of different corporates, investors and entrepreneurs", it would be hard to believe that investors do not expect to make a profit. --Fæ (talk) 11:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

The co-founder Nick Tong has written back to me and confirmed that Compare and Share are a for-profit company. The lack of clear responses, and silence in the two days since, seems to make it reasonable for members to assume that this was unknown by Wikimedia UK operations before proposing that the charity support the event on the Water cooler. A rationale was given that "it costs nothing" for Wikimedia UK to join this marketing campaign, I suggest that the charity asks more questions than how much it costs to be assured that such partnerships and events remain within the values and mission of the charity, certainly before putting the Wikimedia brand name up for grabs. --Fæ (talk) 17:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard of Compare and Share but as this was put up for discussion on wiki and some pretty serious concerns have been raised about it I'd be inclined not to associate WMUK with it unless they be put to rest. Judging from what people have been able to find out so far there is at least a significant risk that our name will be used, in effect, as some kind of endorsement for a scheme which does not seem to have much in common with our own goals. I'm glad Fae an Philaphrenzy have raised these points. Mccapra (talk) 17:06, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I have nothing against capitalism (that would be hypocritical) it's the least worst system that has so far been devised for distributing resources, however, if I am being sold to I like people to be honest about it and this particular scheme seems a little vague about where the money is going. It's not a charity and they are not doing it for nothing are they? If the day becomes established and the financial side becomes more transparent then we could look at it again next year. Philafrenzy (talk) 17:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Note, it took 6 days to get something official on this, when the facts could have been confirmed within the first 20 minutes with a phone call or email. These sorts of checks should be built in before making public statements of support that are hard to back down from; not rely on me as an unpaid amateur detective playing the bad guy. --Fæ (talk) 17:47, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I have to agree that if the Water Cooler is now a form of official announcement page rather than a discussion page then things need to be looked at critically first and contentious things should maybe start on this page. I now proudly sport a grey beard and have been on the receiving end of every kind of dodgy sales pitch you can imagine. Philafrenzy (talk) 17:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Recruitment - Discussion removed from Water_cooler#Open_Coalition_Project_Co-ordinator

The job itself

Hi Stevie. That’s the first I’ve heard about this co-operation - has anything been posted about this before on this wiki or the mailing list? Why are you choosing to hire someone rather than to seek volunteers to do some of this work? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 17:25, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Mike, I've replied to the email but will reply here, too. This has been discussed a few times and the collaboration has been developing for a few months. John Cummings and I led a session at MozFest in October, along with Open Knowledge Foundation, Mozilla and Creative Commons, about this very thing. To address the point about volunteers, there's lots to do and I'd encourage anyone interested in taking part as a volunteer to get involved. One of the key things the project will be doing is bringing together lots of different volunteer communities. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 17:37, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I must admit that when I first read this job description it seemed to me that these were all things that we should already be doing in line with being about the whole open knowledge project, not just Wikipedia. Does this role represent a delegation in some way of the responsibilities of the Chief Exec or is it fundamentally a different job? I see also that it is, like a number of other posts, a part time one. I am starting to be concerned that we are creating a portfolio of part time posts that provide a subsistence income for several people when we should be employing people full time. Inevitably some of these jobs, including recent In Residence appointments, take up a lot more time than the holder is being paid for, spilling into evenings and weekends for which no extra payment is made. The creation of part time posts also severely limits who can apply as most people need a full time income. I hope we are not inadvertently exploiting people by paying them for one or two days when they will actually be working three or four days. Could we alternatively offer two profiles for each job, a longer term part time job and a shorter term full time job, thus creating a wider pool of applicants? Philafrenzy (talk) 18:12, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Some good reflections. Stevie has responded about the job itself I would like to respond to your more general observations. So far we have found that there is n appetite for part time posts. The on;y two posts we have struggled to get shortlists for were actually a full time post and an almost full time post. With Wikimedians in Residence we are still grappling with what works best. We are starting a review shortly of the Wikimedians in Residence programme to see what lessons have been learned and how we can adjust it in the future, should we agree it is worthwhile of course. It is interesting that two posts have been extended. Perhaps that says something about how long they need to be. It is however horses for courses. A major institution can easily accommodate someone and provide enough to do whereas a small institution may prefer something a lot more light touch. I hope you will participate in the review. As to the working evenings and weekends - welcome to the voluntary sector! This is a real issue particularly for WMUK staff who have come from the community and can find themselves 'wikiing' 24/7. Rest assured we have no master plan to casualise and exploit the workforce hence when we have had intern posts we have paid living wage for instance.Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments Jon. I don't suggest any sort of deliberate bias in the matter by WMUK, but I don't see why we can't, where feasible, give an alternative for every post. A one day per week post could be offered with a 10 week full time option, thus making it an option for someone to live in London full time for that period. People sometimes have just a day or two spare each week, other times they may need a full time income. I do agree that the longer the engagement with the institution the better but by only or mainly offering part time posts we are effectively restricting them to the retired, the wealthy or those that enjoy eating lots of pasta. Has anyone with a young family and a mortgage ever applied for any of the part time posts? There is also a clear risk of exploitation by making the working hours too short for the scale of the institution. I am thinking of a recent appointment in particular. In order to avoid accidentally exploiting the goodwill of our members, and to ensure a wide pool of applicants, let's offer more flexibility in this area please and ensure the amount of work being paid for is closely linked to the amount of work actually being done. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:58, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

I think the job itself looks like a good and worthwhile thing. But I echo Philafrenzy's concerns about the proliferation of part-time posts. Realistically, you limit our recruiting pool to those already based in London and possibly the nearer parts of the Home Counties. With the obscene cost of commuting to or living in the capital, I don't think anybody could realistically relocate or commute take up a part-time, six-month post and so applicants from elsewhere in the country are likely to be put off. This is bad for the charity, as it only further skews its activities towards London and restricts its recruiting pool, and it's likely to frustrate people (including me) who might have considered applying, only to find that it's simply not viable because I don't live in London. As a member and a volunteer, I already feel like I'm at a serious disadvantage by being base outside London; the proliferation of short-term, part-time, London-based staff posts seems to confirm that the charity is moving ever closer to being "Wikimedia London". Harry Mitchell (talk) 17:33, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Harry. The part time roles issue has been addressed above by Jon but just as a clarification, the role description says the location is London / Flexible (remote working possible). There's no need for the successful candidate to necessarily be based in London or work from London. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 18:18, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Absolutely. We try to be flexible about location. The education part time post is based in Yorkshire for instance. I don't think it is right to call two extra posts 'a proliferation' of posts. The second one advertised at the moment wil be in Wales and is in reality not our post but we are hiring the person on behalf of the Pathways project as they do not have the right infrastructure to do it easily. Otherwise we have a p/t accountant who needs to be in London for the work but actually lives quite a way away, a p/t GLAM person (Londonish) and this contract post we are discussing which as Stevie says could be elsewhere. When it comes to Wikimedians in Residence we have worked hard to make sure they are not all on London. As to PF's point about how we structure the posts the reality is that we start at the other end of the process, i.e. what does this job need to achieve and then work backwards to find as much flexibility as possible. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 10:03, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

It's correct to work back from the job, but unless there is a strong reason to offer only full time or only part time, will the chapter offer an option on that in the future and allow flexibility as to the number of days worked in a part time post? Also you haven't directly addressed my other concern Jon that some posts may be more time consuming than the holder is actually being paid for. Just because somebody is prepared to do twice as much as they are paid for doesn't mean that we should let them, even if it is good for the charity's bank balance. It will be sufficient to know that you and the board are aware of this risk. Philafrenzy (talk) 19:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't want to reply on behalf of Jon, but I can address the points in respect of this specific role. My initial thinking was for the position to be full time for three months. When I discussed this with some of the groups that we're working with there was a general consensus that a part time position over a longer period would lead to better and more sustainable results. On reflection I'm inclined to agree. The closer relationships and collaborations that we want to achieve are better served over a longer period of time rather than a shorter burst of more intense activity. The point that staff shouldn't do more work than they are paid for is, of course, a valid one. I know for a fact that those paid employees of Wikimedia UK that have line management responsibility do their best to make sure that staff don't end up doing lots of unpaid overtime. I'm line managed by Jon and know from experience he does his best to be strict on this (even if I don't always listen). I intend to be equally strict when the successful applicant for this position comes on board. I hope this is helpful but I'm sure Jon will comment on this, too. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 19:28, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:44, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply Stevie. You said by email 'The board agreed to fund the project at the December board meeting'. I must be missing something - can you point me to where in the minutes this decision is recorded please? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Can't we discuss anything on the water cooler nowadays? I'm starting to feel like I'm barred from commenting there nowadays. :-( Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:14, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

The Water cooler, once for free exchange of ideas and questions, seems to have become only for approved announcements, and supporting statements of positivity, not for questions or open discussion. Not anything like how we expected transparent and open values to be implemented when we agreed the mission of the charity just a few years ago. Mike, I apologise for working against you with regard to keeping the wikimediauk-l email list independent of the charity, I now appreciate how important this might be as an independent free channel for discussion; such as being a place where one might be allowed to be critical of the CEO. --Fæ (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Just to note: I wasn't arguing for wikimediauk-l to be independent, I was arguing for it to be used by both the charity and the community, not just one or the other (and to avoid having a duplicate list set up just for WMUK members). But that's a separate issue from this one. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 07:31, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Stevie for the link to Joint Mozfest session. I thought that was just for planning a joint session at a meeting, though, and not starting a full co-operation? I can't see anything there about hiring a joint coordinator, nor anything else about it on this wiki. I'd really like to see open discussion take place here before such positions are being recruited, e.g. so that volunteers can express whether they would like to be coordinated, or to see whether the work could be done voluntarily rather than via a paid position. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 07:35, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

(unindent) Hi Mike and Philafrenzy. Mike, the minute you are looking for is here. Philafrenzy, I'm not sure what you mean by delegating the responsibilities of the chief exec in this context. Could you clarify please? To answer the question I “think” you may be asking, bringing together groups that are working in the same area, or similar areas, as Wikimedia UK is clearly pretty important. Throughout the work that has been happening over the last few months it has become clear to all organisations involved that having someone who can co-ordinate this activity would be extremely useful. With some volunteer support I wrote up the project proposal and presented this to the board as an appendix to my quarterly report. The board agreed to support the project and obviously I am very pleased, as are the people I've been working with at Creative Commons and Open Knowledge Foundation. These groups are also looking at the possibility of providing extension funding to continue the project after the initial period. I'm proud of Wikimedia UK for showing leadership in this area, particularly as everyone I've spoken to from other organisations tends to comment along the lines of: "This is excellent, we've been thinking along these lines for ages, why haven't we done this sooner?" With regards to part-time roles and people working too much, please be assured that I will be making sure that the successful applicant doesn't work more than their allotted hours (although this isn't a problem limited to part-time staff). The wider point about part time vs full time roles is much more complicated and I don't really feel qualified to answer that. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:30, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the link, Stevie. I've just dropped Alastair an email to suggest that section be clarified to make it clear that it is talking about the coordinator role, and not any other project. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 11:37, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Budget and salary

Now the members have access to the Commons report that recommended this new position to the board, created and published today here, it can be seen that a budget of £10k was put forward to cover 3 months. This included £6.5k for salary. As Mike has highlighted, the minutes of 7th December 2013, say nothing about what the board of trustees agreed apart from "they were in favour of the proposal". Certainly the details of the Comms report do not match the job that has now been publicly announced. Could a trustee or the CEO please confirm exactly what the board of trustees agreed on 7th December and ensure both the budget and associated project plan are promptly published? --Fæ (talk) 12:22, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Meaning of this recruitment to the WMF grant / FDC proposal

My understanding of m:Grants:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round1/WMUK/Proposal_form#Current_entity_staff_and_long-term_contractors was that Wikimedia UK made a firm public commitment to freeze staff numbers for 2014. Considering that only a few months weeks have passed and that Stevie has confirmed that the Charity was in discussions as far back as October 2013, both the board of trustees and the CEO must have been aware this was not the operational strategy that would be followed. Note that the grant did not have final approval by the WMF board of trustees until the end of December 2013. This allowed plenty of time for a public amendment.

Why was the FDC bid presented with false commitments, and why are the charity's funding commitments being broken so early in 2014 (only 17 days since the WMF approved the grant) without returning any of the funds? --Fæ (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Rest assured the FDC are aware, Anasuya was actually present at the Board meeting where this exciting decision was made. We like to be flexible and this was a great opportunity completely in line with our charitable objectives. AGF Fae Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 17:58, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I am not assuming bad faith, that is a worn out rebuttal to questions. The FDC proposal is a public record, the only public statement available to me since the proposal was published is this post presenting a done deal. I do not have access to your in-camera meetings, nor do other members of the charity. According to your statement, Anasuya and the FDC was aware of this, and presumably approved of the deviation from the FDC commitment; but failed to say anything publicly. I am surprised that the FDC was not more transparent about how it accepted this concession in December and informed the WMF board in advance of their approval of the proposal, which only occurred two three weeks after the WMUK board meeting you mention. The FDC has a duty to remain transparent, this behaviour appears to fail to be transparent. A public email or note on meta from Anasuya, officially representing the FDC, explaining how the FDC empowered Anasuya to represent the FDC in December and how they kept the WMF BoT informed before finalizing the grant, would be useful for the record. --Fæ (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I have emailed the FDC to ask for a clarification of these agreements.

I remain unclear on the following points:

1. Whether Anasuya was representing the FDC on 7th December 2013 as appears implied above by Jon Davies' statement "rest assured the FDC are aware".
2. Whether the FDC, WMUK or Anasuya took steps to inform the WMF Board of Trustees between 7th December and 31st December that the commitments of the FDC bid would not be complied with.
3. How failures against measurable commitments for performance, financial plans or resource plans made in the FDC proposal are to be publicly reported, may be ignored or renegotiated in non-public meetings/discussions.

--Fæ (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to a helpful trustee for pointing out that in the Christmas rush we had not uploaded Stevie's Comms report to the UK WIKI. Stevie needed to remove something before it could become public but selfishly went on holiday just after the board meeting. When he returned staff who deal with such things, including myself, went on holiday for Christmas. We apologise to the community who could not see this really interesting report until today and to Stevie who has achieved a couple of big wins for the chapter and needed to have his accomplishments made more public. I hope this will answer a few of Fae's questions. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 08:57, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

New reporting processes will be in place for the next and subsequent board meetings that will ensure reports are not held back by accident. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 09:21, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

As my reply here was being edited by Michael Maggs, I have removed it entirely rather than leaving a cherry-picked fragment against my name.

After this unwelcome and unnecessary act of censorship, please consider this thread at an end as I have no expectation of a meaningful reply to my direct questions. --Fæ (talk) 13:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Fae, thanks for checking in on this. As we've shared with you on email as well, the annual plan grants supported by the FDC are general support and unrestricted funds - so there is an understanding that each organisation receiving these funds has the autonomy to respond to both opportunities and challenges that are not necessarily in their original plan. Organisations do need to keep the FDC and WMF staff informed, and they do so through their quarterly reports, and/or through any form of formal correspondence (our grant agreements require that any significant variance from plan be shared with the WMF grantmaking team. This then gets conveyed to our committees; in this case, the FDC). The FDC is particularly - and understandably - concerned about full time positions, as they have long term liability implications for organisations, if funding plans should change.

In this instance, it's certainly correct that I was present when the position of the coordinator was discussed at the Board meeting (both Frank Schulenburg and I were there as invited observers; we were present as WMF heads of Programs and Grantmaking, respectively, to be able to learn more of WMUK's current context and future plans), and it was clear from the discussions that this was a short term contract position that was to be hired in the new year (i.e. through the new plan). It was equally clear that the Board of WMUK felt this was an important task that needed some immediate, if bounded, attention. WMUK will share this with the FDC more formally in its first report - in which we ask how plans have changed since the FDC allocations were approved - and I have also asked Jon to offer more details of the position to the FDC to clarify any questions they may have. I have informally shared with the FDC feedback from our visit to WMUK.

Overall, I do believe that WMUK is doing its best to proceed with caution, given the FDC's guidance over the past couple of years. I certainly hope its strategy will prove effective and have good impact on the Wikimedia community and its projects. Thanks, ASengupta (WMF) (talk) 16:22, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for replying publicly here Anasuya, and your expressions of positive support and hopes for the UK chapter.

Based on an absence of assurance otherwise, it is reasonable to conclude from the correspondence on this wiki and my correspondence to the FDC which reiterated these direct questions, that there was no report or notification for the Wikimedia Foundation in advance of 31st December 2013 when Wikimedia UK's grant was authorized based on the FDC recommended proposal. Wikimedia UK was planning a new employed position a couple of months before this date, and the FDC were made aware of it at least by the 7th December 2013. This gave several weeks in advance of the official grant authorization, for Wikimedia UK to notify the WMF that the proposal may have been misleading in stating that there was no plan to increase the number of employees during 2014.

It may well be that the FDC has no specific responsibility to do this on behalf of the UK chapter.

This is a separate issue from how reporting changes to plan are supposed to work after the grant has been awarded. --Fæ (talk) 17:46, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Censorship

My comment has been censored without contacting me in advance, I believe wholly unnecessary, here. Apparently, even highlighting when the CEO is being blatantly sarcastic is now a good enough reason for suppression of the concerns of members.

When I finish my correspondence with the FDC, I'm afraid I no longer trust this wiki to make a public statement that would not be subject to later tampering or censorship. I shall instead first provide a summary on the wikimediauk-l email list where the CEO does not have ultimate control and my text will not be re-written without my permission. --Fæ (talk) 13:28, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Warning

I give fair warning that any editor posting personal attacks on staff anywhere on the charity's website may find themselves blocked from further editing without notice. Such behaviour will simply not be tolerated, whether from you, Fae, or from anybody else. All current editors except you are perfectly able to distinguish between engagement with the charity - even critical engagement - which is most welcome, and personal attacks against individuals. Bundling an engagement with the charity in the same posting as a personal attack does not protect the attack from deletion, nor the editor from being blocked. To avoid what you call 'tampering or censorship' editors are expected to comply with normal standards of civility. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:06, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi Michael, I believe this boils down to you deciding to interpret Jon's comment "Stevie ... selfishly went on holiday" as a joke of some sort, whilst I read it as sarcastic and explained how that sarcasm appeared to me, I doubt that I would be so unusual as to be the only person that would read Jon's comment as sarcastic given it was in response to a serious question of governance. Considering that a couple of weeks ago I reasonably struck a comment of mine because you thought it would read as sarcasm, your escalation by deleting my comments without discussion and then giving a warning appears more than a little uneven. At the end of the day, you and Jon are free to run this wiki as you see fit, however you might consider laying out the process for warnings and blocking volunteers, even previous trustees or Chairs of the charity such as myself from contributing here in more detail, including the appeals procedure. Presumably to be fair, any procedure would apply equally to employees and be capable of handling complaints.

If I complain that Jon's comment "Stevie ... selfishly went on holiday" was sarcastic, how am I supposed to do that without pointing it out and risking counter allegations of a personal attack? --Fæ (talk) 18:22, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Fae, "false and political" was a personal attack and uncalled for. You're articulate enough to make the point you were trying to make without attacking Jon. But on a broader note, you can't repeatedly undermine the chief executive of a charity on said charity's website and expect no comeback. Even in the Wikimedia world, there are standards of decorum that people are expected to adhere to. Harry Mitchell (talk) 17:40, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

No, you have given a partial quote. In response to Jon's sarcastic comment, I said "appeared" to be so, as indeed it did. This was not an accusation about Jon's person but about his statement/apology.

I certainly agree with you about criticising the CEO on this website. Consider that a lesson learned. --Fæ (talk) 17:53, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't intending to distort your quote by taking it out of context, just to point out the part that people are likely to object to. Reasonable people may differ, but I think most people would agree that calling a statement "false and political" is not in keeping with the standards of decorum for a forum such as this. We're all passionate people, and sometimes we disagree (sometimes quite strongly), but we're all working towards (more-or-less) the same ultimate goal, so let's try to remember that when we're disagreeing with each other. Harry Mitchell (talk) 14:52, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Please keep the word "appeared" in the quote thanks. It is the difference between legitimate comment and defamation. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 15:20, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Mentioned in The New York Times

I have been described in the NYT as a "professional misanthrope" by the subject of an article that I nominated for deletion. I am sure a few people here will agree. If I am a professional, shouldn't I get paid or is the work it's own reward? Philafrenzy (talk) 23:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that makes you notable. Your own article awaits.--MichaelMaggs (talk) 06:35, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

You should add it to your linkedin profile - you were mentioned in the New York Times on account of your knowledge of "Postage Stamps and Postage History of Seychelles". That probably makes you a world expert! Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 11:10, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I am too misanthropic to have a Linked In profile Richard! Philafrenzy (talk) 11:24, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Registering in Scotland?

Hi all. A while back WMUK changed the Articles so that it could be registered as a charity in Scotland. Has this been done? I can't find WMUK by searching the OSCR register. There's info about the process at [1]. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 09:02, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

On a slight tangent (partly because I don't personally know the answer to the question) how would any registration of Wikimedia UK in Scotland be affected by a "Yes" vote in the upcoming Scottish independence referendum? Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 09:10, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Richard S may correct me but an amendment to our Mem and Arts is pending for the next AGM which I think unlocks this. This was certainly what I was led to believe when last discussed. Do you have a specific worry about this? Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 09:15, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

The resolution was passed at the AGM back in 2012. I don't have any specific worry - Philafrenzy's comments above just reminded me about this. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

There was, IIRC, a discussion about this at a recent board meeting which has led to an action on me to make sure that this was voted on a second time at the AGM. I don't remember the details but I will ask the Board to direct their attention to this post. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 10:55, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

To quote from an email I've received from Greyham today, "[It is] not really to “re-vote” but to acknowledge that for due compliance with charity law, as CC consent was needed before the new Article could come into effect. That consent was received by email in response to the work Jon and I did on filing amended Articles with the CC, and so all that is needed is a Members’ Special Resolution confirming Art.30 on that basis."

In effect, Greyham is saying that we needed (technically) to check with the Charity Commission before voting on Article 30. Now that we've checked (and updated the Commission), we need to 'reconfirm' the Article. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 13:27, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Richard. That doesn't sound right, though. The change made at the 2012 AGM isn't a regulated alteration, so it shouldn't need CC's permission before being made; CC should just need to be informed after the fact. See [2] for more info. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Richard can I suggest that we both do a trawl back through Board minutes to familiarise ourselves with the reasons why we thought this needed to come back to an AGM? As far as I can see without going off and spending quite a bit of time on it, the wording of the 2012 AGM motion is sound and the voting process at the AGM. I think Mike is right to say that we don't need Charity Commission permission before we vote on whether we want to make the change to our Articles, but we do need permission from before before we can enact a change.Mccapra (talk) 19:50, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Re-reading the resolution passed by the 2012 AGM I think it could be argued that it was faulty in that is appears to suggest that the members of the charity may alter their articles in the light of the resolution without seeking permission from the Charity Commission, when this is not the case. In fact however the proposed change was agreed and the permission of the Charity Commission was sought (as I understand) so I'm not clear myself what it is that we are taking back to the next AGM, other than a note of what has been done to put the resolution into effect. I don't see that a new resolution is required for anything.Mccapra (talk) 19:57, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Alastair. Just to reiterate: as far as I can tell this is not a change that needs prior consent of the Charities Commission, as it doesn't fall into the scope of the three regulated alteration categories; it just needs them to be kept informed after the fact. It would be worth looking back at the legal advice that we received at the time (I think from Stone King), which was suggesting that we make this change. (I proposed a while back to have a page on the office wiki with an archive of all the legal advice WMUK had paid for, but I'm not sure whether that ever got populated by the staff?) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 06:58, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanking users for edits

Is there a way for us to implement here the system that exists on Commons whereby we can thank someone for an edit by clicking on an "(undo | thank)" link in the View History page? It doesn't seem to be a gadget, so far as I can see. Is it a feature of a later MediaWiki version than we have on our site? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:56, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Installing the relevant extension looks like something for our developers. I'll open a bug on Bugzilla. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 15:01, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you.--MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Feedback on the Main Page

In response to Stevie's email about the main page, can I suggest a few tweaks to its text?

• "They are written and curated by thousands of volunteers, and are supported by voluntary donations, just like Wikimedia UK." - this is not strictly true, as WMUK sadly isn't (yet) written or curated by thousands are volunteers. Also, the aim here should be the Wikimedia projects being supported by voluntary donations *through* WMUK rather than making a distinction between donations to the projects and donations to WMUK! So perhaps rephrase to something like "They are written and curated by thousands of volunteers. They are also supported by voluntary donations through Wikimedia UK and other chapters and the Wikimedia Foundation."
• "Wikimedia UK is the registered charity" - that should probably mention "in the United Kingdom" or something similar, as other Wikimedia organisations are recognised as charities.
• "this year we are hosting Wikimania" - has it now been clearly set out that WMUK is hosting Wikimania? The last time I was looking at this, there was a draft agreement being prepared between WMUK and the individuals that bid for Wikimania, but it was still being drafted - has an agreement now been set out and signed? If so, please could a copy be shared on-wiki?
• The new volunteer/join us/donate buttons are very nice. :-) Can I suggest adding a bit more horizontal padding between the button edges and the text, so that they look a bit less squashed, though?
• Having 'volunteers' in bold in the 'Get Involved' section looks a bit odd, as it's the only unlinked and non-title bit of bold text on the page. Perhaps it could be turned into a link?

(I also made a formatting/punctuation tweak earlier - hope that was OK!)

It might be worth thinking about doing a more thorough overhaul of the page at some point. It's been developed in a bit of an ad-hoc way over the last few years, and it's starting to show (e.g. with the triple language/logo bar/advert at the top of the page, immediately followed by the 'About Wikimedia UK' bar). Perhaps a mini-competition could be run to encourage volunteers to come up with new concepts for what the page could contain and how it could be laid out?

Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:09, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

The nice big Volunteer button goes to the Volunteering Portal which has loads of text but no clear direction at all as to what to do next. A new visitor would really struggle to go beyond that page, as there is no clear pointer to 'what do I do now'? There could at the very least be a blindingly obvious button to send the Charity an email to get more information. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:25, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

It's being worked on today. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 08:39, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Katie! --MichaelMaggs (talk) 08:51, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Keep the comments coming, all useful, - We are working in the background to make the front page (and the whole UK Wiki) as good as possible in the longer term. The circumstances this weekend have meant that we have had to put together very quickly something as an experiment. If what we are hoping comes off, comes off, then we will learn a lot. We have to be circumspect about it as making it public would probably mean it would be significantly less likely to happen. Sorry to be so cryptic but that is the way it is. With luck we will be praising one special volunteer to the roof on Monday, if not we will still have got the nce new buttons. Have a good weekend Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 09:21, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

in reference to Mike's third bullet point above I think we need to say WMUK is a charity registered in England and Wales. We are not OSCR registered and I don't think the term UK Charity is correct. Can someone check with the charity commission advice on this please? Thanks Mccapra (talk) 13:15, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

I have also asked above whether the term Charitable Company, which we have capitalised, is correct? Is that a separate thing provided for in law. We mention the charitable status on the next line. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all of these comments. I'll make some small changes that hopefully take the above into account. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:48, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Just one point about Mike's comment on chapters and the WMF etc. That will be meaningless to newcomers, who this is really aimed at. We can think about coming up with something more detailed later on if we need to. But I do take the point on board. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:54, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, scratch that. I've made a minor clarification there which I think helps Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Stevie - the changes you've made look good. :-) Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 14:10, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

No problem, thank you for your constructive comments!Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:13, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

The Donate and Join Us buttons on the main page direct to respective pages that have different (out of date) side bar layouts on the left. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:34, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Michael, not sure why that is, other than they don't sit on our wiki. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 16:06, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Stephen Fry

Nice work on that, everyone who made it happen. Is a Facebook post coming on it or is anything else planned to maximise publicity? Philafrenzy (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

+1 Good work. Just as Andy has done, I encourage others to think about dropping celebs an email (or a tweet) so they can supply missing photos or audio; your success rate might only be 25% (based on my past experience), and it's made a bit complex having to explain we need a CC-BY release, but always worth a punt.

If this does generate interest, could we also use this as an opportunity to encourage audio and video more generally on Commons? We are particularly poor when it comes to free performances of classic music (or out-of-copyright music), so anyone with an interest in amateur performances or folk music should be encouraged to borrow the chapter's recording kit and have a go. We are also weak when it comes to sound "effects" such as different car engines, cat meowing, market traders calling etc. These may seem odd things to collect, but they can be great for bringing articles to life.

By the way, if you have large collections of free audio or video, drop me or Andy an email. We can arrange batch conversions to free formats for uploading to Commons. This could easily become a pragmatic "help me service" the chapter might be the point of contact for. --Fæ (talk) 18:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Hello both. In terms of publicity we're waiting to see if Stephen tweets it. We're hopeful that he will, in which case we could be looking at a spike of, literally, hundreds of thousands of hits an hour. Work has taken place behind the scenes (thanks to Tom Morton) to make sure that our infrastructure can handle it. The real credit for all of this goes to Andy Mabbett, who has been working on this for a long time. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 18:53, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Here's hoping. Who has the next highest number of followers in Britain? Jeremy Clarkson? Do we have his voice? Philafrenzy (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2014 (UTC)