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Supporting the UK's first Wiki Loves Monuments competition

Hi all,

For those who haven't been following organizational progress of the WLM competition to date, we have a small group of dedicated volunteers and staff who are working hard to ensure that the UK's first contribution to the world's largest photographic competition goes without a hitch. We have a nice competition website to attract competitors (many of whom will not be Wiki savvy, and will be new contributors & editors). We are expecting this to be quite a big deal, and the staff at Wikimedia UK have been busy making arrangement for publicity as well as helping out with the lists. We hope to get press notices and image spreads in the Metro, which publishes in Bath, Birmingham, Brighton, Bristol, Cardiff, Derby, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Leicester, Liverpool, London, Manchester, Nottingham, Newcastle and Sheffield, as well as in The Times (thanks Stevie). The high-profile nature of the competition has been strengthened by the agreement of Steve Cole ABIPP, Head of Photography at English Heritage, to join the national judging panel (jury) (thanks Richard N.)

The WLM volunteers will do everything they can to make sure the English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland lists are in a good state before the start of the national and international competitions - September 1st is just three weeks away now. We are all very aware that the deadline is looming, and that a quite a lot of work still remains to be done. Everyone is working as fast as they can and due to the rapidly approaching deadline it appears that unfortunately a few errors have slipped through. Really, we need more people to help out. There is a particular need for editors who are experienced with bots or scripts to pitch in now, not only to help fix some of the errors, but also to help put up the remainder of the listed building data using the standard WLM templates. If you can help in any way, please make yourself known to the WLM team, either via my talk page, or by adding your name to the helpers' page on Commons. If you can actively help now, you should also, please, sign up to the Wiki Loves Monuments UK mailing list, where you can obtain detailed information. You can see the current status of the data uploads by going to the Progress lists for Wikipedians; you can see there, for example, that we still need someone to deal with the uploading of almost all of the Scottish data. We can provide structured lists of data for those who can help with this.

If you can't help with bot work, but are able to contribute by tidying up or correcting the WP lists for your area, that would still be very much appreciated. You can get to the lists by going via one of the following links:

The best place to report systematic list errors, to ensure that the WLM volunteers see them, is not on this thread, but rather at the main WLM-UK help desk.

Given the fact that the competition will be starting in just three weeks time (whether the UK team is ready or not!), I would ask that editors do not make any radical changes to the en Wikipedia lists at this stage which could inadvertently destroy the competition. In particular, please do not make mass reverts, unless you are able to put everything back correctly, and please do not remove or change the WLM template structure. This is essential for the automated upload tool to work properly, and also for the WLM international team to ensure that the data gets correctly harvested and copied into the worldwide Wiki Monuments Database.

After the competition has finished, at the end of September, would be a good time for the community to discuss - if desired - any possible template improvements to the way in which the UK data is standardized and displayed.

Thanks for bearing with us and for helping out if you can. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:12, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

And thanks to you Michael and everyone working on this - absolutely brilliant and I hope we can lead the way in supporting the newbies (especially) to remain active after the main event has happened. Ideas anyone? Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 08:26, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Virtual Learning Environment workshop day

Hello everyone, as you probably know Wikimedia UK has been developing a Virtual Learning Environment (VLE) to teach people about Wikipedia. Progress is going well and we'd like to invite you to a workshop day on Saturday 9 November. The workshop will highlight the features of the VLE, look at how we can make good use of the tool, seek community involvement in the content, maintenance and localisation of the tool. Lunch will be provided on the day and I'm hoping very much to see you there. Please do feel free to drop me a line with any questions. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

List of interested people:

Open access hackathon

Hi, not sure if this is right place to leave a message, but there's an event coming up that might be of interest to any Wikimedians who are interested in open access to research. The Open Access Button team (Joe and David) are holding a hackathon in London on the weekend of 7-8 September, venue to be decided very shortly. They are very interested in working with Wikimedia on their ideas, and on the Wikimania 2014 team we're planning on getting them involved in the conference next year. They're new to Wikimedia so are very keen to meet people and get involved. You can contact them on twitter if you're interested. Thanks. Lawsonstu (talk) 16:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Further information and sign-up details are now available on their blog. "Millions of people a day are denied access to the research they both need and paid for because of paywalls. It doesn’t have to be like this, but we need your help. We’re two students from the UK making a tool to help change the system – it’s called the Open Access Button..." Lawsonstu (talk) 07:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

QRpedia update

Six months have gone by since the announcement by Chris Keating of the donation, and two months since he said they had a solution that would work. As of today, whois.com shows ownership of the QRpedia related domains as:

  • qrpedia.org – Terrence Eden
  • qrwp.org – Bamkin Family
  • qrpedia.org.uk – Michael Peel
  • qrpedia.net - Michael Peel
  • qrpedia.co.uk – Bamkin Family

(Mike Peel has stated the ownership of his two domains has been transferred to WMUK (and WMUK reimbursed him for the purchase), and that he has lodged a bug report to have the records corrected)

Could an update on the transfer of the other domains and the future of QRpedia please be given? The last board minutes note that there were “four points that Roger needs to agree”. Has he agreed? If so, when will the transfer happen? If not, what are the steps from here? TheOverflow (talk) 20:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

+1. Four days have passed since this question was asked. A holding response from a trustee or employee as acknowledgement would have been nice even if an answer is being debated in-camera. Considering the public statement on 9th February 2013 with the commitment that a "fuller statement will follow" and assurances after similar questions were repeated on 7th June 2013, it seems long overdue for the charity to share information with members. Referring to my diary, which included my recommendations when I was the Chairman to finalize the deal in 2012, more than two years have passed in negotiation and seeing several months of only issuing upbeat public statements eventually becomes a risk, rather than the board sticking to the value of being open and honest with members about issues. --Fæ (talk) 12:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for asking about this. I've passed the question on to people who have been directly involved in the work. Apologies for the delay - I only returned from annual leave today and have been catching up on many things. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 15:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
It has been 8 days since TheOverflow raised their question. The charity has a total of 15 staff and board members available, and in the light of several reports and press releases in this time, none appears willing or has permission to give a simple or prompt update. TheOverflow has gone ahead and updated the English Wikipedia article on QRpedia with the information they have. --Fæ (talk) 08:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
Two weeks and, disappointingly, still no answers despite, as Fæ notes the availability of staff and board members. I do note from whois.com, however, that the qrpedia.net, previously registered to Michael Peel is now registered to Wiki UK Limited, and qrpedia.org.uk while still registered to Michael Peel now has wikimedia UK's address as registrant's address, so there seems to have been some work behind the scenes. TheOverflow (talk) 00:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for the slow reply. We have what is from our point of view a final agreement which will transfer the domains and IP, which was completed shortly after the last Board meeting and it is awaiting Roger's signature. I understand he has, not unreasonably, been taking his own legal advice before signing and completing the transfer. Regards, The Land (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for that response, and the apology for the slow reply. The final agreement from WMUK's view was completed shortly after the last board meeting. That's around two months ago - that's a lot of time to seek and consider legal advice. When do you expect it to be finalised? TheOverflow (talk) 01:03, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Given that agreement has not been reached, the claim that it has been reached should be removed from Governance_Review/Implementation. TheOverflow (talk) 01:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I agree, it is a long time, particularly as the substance of the agreement was settled some time before that (indeed, the basic terms are still what was agreed in January, just with additional complexity to deal with the risk of needing to defend patent litigation in future). I've also updated the implementation tracking as requested, thanks for pointing that out. The Land (talk) 08:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
So, when do you expect it to be finalised? Did you provide Roger with an expectation of when he would return the document? If it is not soon, perhaps a formal announcement of the delay would be in order - given the charity has announced the 'donation' several times over. TheOverflow (talk) 10:35, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
I would certainly hope it's finalised shortly and there is no obstacle on Wikimedia UK's side to the domains being transferred right away. I am not sure I can say any more than that. Obviously this state of affairs where we have a contract waiting to be signed can't continue indefinitely. The Land (talk) 11:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Actually, it can continue indefinitely; we are seeing it continue indefinitely now. I asked when you expected it to be finalised. I asked if Roger had been given a date. You have answered neither. Given a commitment to not allowing this to be indefinite, can you please specify a date when either the agreement will be signed and the domains transferred, or that an announcement will be made formally turning down the donation? TheOverflow (talk) 05:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello Wikimedia UK! This QR discussion particularly interested me and I drafted a proposal that may be of interest to you: Mediawikiwiki:Requests for comment/URL shortener service for Wikimedia which relies on a shortening service such as Mediawikiwiki:Requests for comment/URL shortener. -- とある白い猫 chi? 02:59, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
By the way, above edit has not been attributed to me yet. This is meant to be a bug report. -- とある白い猫 ちぃ？ 01:39, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Loves Monuments UK - call for volunteers to pre-screen entries in September

I'm unsure how many uploads we can expect to get as part of WLM in the UK over the next month, but the signs are that it could be in the tens of thousands - far too many for us to give straight to our three-person jury to review.

That means that we will need one or more levels of pre-screening, to knock out the images that are clearly not good enough to pass on to the next stage. We need to plan to do this pre-screening on a daily basis, as the competition proceeds, as there may well not be enough time to do the whole lot in October.

I'm looking for volunteers who could help online with this, either throughout September or at least for a day or two. No experience is needed, other than a reliable ability to distinguish a good photo from a poor one. Although the entries will be from the UK, anyone from anywhere can make a difference.

If you can help, please let me know on my talk page, or add your name to the pre-screening team.

Many thanks, --MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Worth noting that we are well over the 6,000 uploads mark and 325 volunteers out there in the rain! Let's make sure we thanks them all and keep them involved until the next one! Well done everyone involved, it is really impressive. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 15:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Getting the word out about the Wiki Loves Monuments competition

As you probably know, the Wiki Loves Monuments competition starts this Sunday, 1st September, and we would like to get as many entries from the UK as we possibly can.

Please do your bit by letting friends and family around the country know, and please also spread the word to local societies that you may be involved with. Of particular interest are local historical groups, civic groups and photographic clubs.

Please feel free to use the text below as an email template. It's designed to be sent to a society, but should be easy to change if you are emailing friends.

--MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:37, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi

I am emailing in case your members might be interested in contributing photographs of their local listed buildings to the international Wiki Loves Monuments competition, which runs throughout the month of September. I am a volunteer with the charity Wikimedia UK.

Entries can be images taken specially for the competition, or can be pre-existing images, and will be available for others to use on Wikipedia.

I would be most grateful if you would be good enough to bring this competition to the attention of your members. The link is www.wikilovesmonuments.org.uk

If you or any of your members have queries, please feel free to email me directly.

Thanks for your help, and regards,

. . .

____________________________________________________________________________________

World's largest photography contest comes to the UK - record your local listed buildings

September is the month when summer begins drawing to a close, the football season is in full swing and the leaves begin to change colour. You may not be aware that it's also the month of the world's largest photography competition.

Wiki Loves Monuments is a global competition, open to everyone. In the UK the aim is to gather together freely-licensed high quality photographs of the UK's listed buildings for use on Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia. And it's open to everybody.

Wikipedia has a global audience of over 500 million people every month, making Wiki Loves Monuments a chance for entrants to have their photography potentially reach a very large audience. For example, the article about Hadrian's Wall receives around 700,000 visitors a year while the article about London is viewed around 4.5 million times a year.

Aside from being great fun, Wiki Loves Monuments is a way of capturing a snapshot of our nation’s cultural heritage for future generations, documenting our country’s most important historic buildings. Over time, the collections gathered throughout the competition will become an incredibly useful historical resource.

Entries can be images taken specially for the competition, or can be pre-existing images.

Michael Maggs, volunteer member of the Wiki Loves Monuments UK steering committee and a Wikimedia UK Trustee, said: “The contest is a great way not only to contribute to Wikipedia but also to record and share with the world images of your local historic environment. You don't need to be a professional-quality photographer to upload photos and help make a difference.”

Jon Davies, Chief Executive of Wikimedia UK, the charity that is helping to support the initiative, said: "Taking part in Wiki Loves Monuments for the first time is very exciting. We’re hoping that the UK will provide a leading contribution to the contest and are calling on photographers, amateur and professional alike, to help to make this happen. We'd love for the global winner to come from the UK."

To learn more about the competition and to get involved, visit www.wikilovesmonuments.org.uk

____________________________________________________________________________________

Style for the blog

I strongly recommend more use of the --more-- tag on the blog, so that the blog front page (and WMUK front page) gives only short teasers and people have to click through

  • Not all our readers are interested in any given blog post, but given the diversity of the topics, almost all of them should be interested in at least one recent post. Given how surprisingly reluctant users are to scroll, it's better to make it easier for them to get an overview (headlines and teasers) for a lot of posts.
  • If people have to click through to read a post, then the viewing stats for individual posts give a useful metrics for the interest they attract. If people can read all recent posts from the front page, then that potential for evaluation is lost.

I also recommend just having no more than short teasers of blog posts on the wiki main page (sometimes this happens; sometimes there are longer extracts or the full text of the post). I know this complicates things for the Welsh translation of the blog: maybe a separate page can be created for Welsh summaries of the blog posts?

  • Google apparently penalises duplicate content.
  • In my webmaster job, I've conducted usability tests as well as benefiting from consultants who test usability for sites like the Guardian and BBC. It's amazing how reluctant desktop users are to scroll (just think about how few of the general public are aware of Wikipedia's sister sites, even though you can see them all by scrolling down Wikipedia's home page) and hence a good front page design gets all important items in a desktop user's first screenful. This was really rammed home to me by the consultants. Our text in the "About Wikimedia UK" section is crucial for anyone visiting for the first time, and so arguably are the contact details underneath.

Also, can the left hand navigation on the blog be updated to match that of the main site? They've got very out of sync. Stevie, I recognise you're working hard on a lot of different things at the moment, but maybe this is something a developer can implement? Cheers, MartinPoulter (talk) 15:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi Martin, thanks very much for these useful and thoughtful comments. I've made a note to spend a bit of time looking at this and other blog things later this week. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 15:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
Very helpful. We really need to think hard about what we look like to the outside world. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 09:52, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Photography training workshops for volunteers

Hello everyone. I've been looking in to the possibility of offering some photography training for Wikimedia volunteers. This is definitely something we can do in the form of one-day workshops for small groups. This would be delivered at no cost to the volunteers so at this point I'd like to assess how much appetite there is for this kind of workshop and get a sense of how many people would like to take part. This would be a really worthwhile activity and help to empower volunteers and give them additional skills that can be used not only when contributing to Wikimedia projects, but elsewhere, too. If you are interested, please do let me know, either by replying here or sending me an email. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 10:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Twitter user and Wiki Loves Monuments participant @secretlondon has expressed an interest so far. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 12:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
RodW is interested in a session in the Bath / Bristol area. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:02, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I'd also be interested in the Bath / Bristol area. Rwendland (talk) 13:20, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I'd love to go to a workshop like this. I'm not averse to travelling, so Bristol would be fine (Bath's a bit of a pain but not impossible). Harry Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:39, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I'd be interested in such a workshop in London. Edwardx (talk) 16:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I found the photography workshop in Edinburgh enormously useful. But, my experience from that suggests such should be preferentially offered to established Wikimedians. --Brian McNeil / talk 00:38, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I would be interested if held in London (or a short train ride away). A segment to discuss some of the issues relating to uploading user photographs that can cause snags could be useful; I would be happy to share some examples from my 150,000 image uploads. Common issues include erroneous or non-standard EXIF data (leading to bots reaching wrong conclusions), the impossibility of finding non-identical duplicates, work for hire, model consent, video processing, and unexpected copyright issues from photographs taken in other countries (assuming the group has a good awareness of UK copyright) such as photographs where there is no freedom of panorama or photographs of manufactured products. If there was interest then a discussion of tools for mass processing could also be productive for those with larger collections. --Fæ (talk) 09:35, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for your interest so far. I'm going to leave this open for a short while longer but it looks like we may have enough people interested to have a cohort in London and one in Bristol. I'm particularly keen to offer this to any other volunteers who attend Wikimedia UK events (especially training) on a fairly regular basis. Fae, your suggestions here are useful and I think that there would be a chance to raise some of these issues with a trainer, particularly the batch processing. I know that Adobe Photoshop can handle this, I suspect that GIMP can too. However, the main (aha) focus of the event would be how to take technically good photos rather than spending too much time looking at copyright, freedom of panorama and so on. I think that would be an altogether different session and might be something that we could do separately. There may well be someone who is an expert on copyright who would deliver perhaps a half day seminar / workshop for those interested in that area. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:11, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure Fae and I between probably know as much about UK copyright as a hired instructor would! ;) I'd love to talk about mass-uploading and some of the other issues Fae raises, but as you say, Stevie, they might best saved for another event. Harry Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 14:29, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I could help in London and maybe in Bristol too. Would you like a talk on UK copyright for photographers? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
I have taken a couple of thousand photos as a volunteer and would be interested in a photography course, preferably in London. A copyright session might also be interesting, presumably this would also cover issues for uploaders? Jonathan Cardy (WMUK) (talk) 12:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK contact database migration

This weekend wikimedia uk will be migrating its contact records management database, Civi CRM from its current platform hosting (Joomla) to a new platform (Drupal) and the most up to date version of the software available.

This will mean at some points of the weekend users will notice changes on the donate.wikimedia.org.uk domain as the new database and web forms are migrated and re-established.

If you experience an issue please log it on the WMUK instance of Bugzilla - https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org.uk/ - you can register an account with your email of choice and this will be activated for you,

User testing of the migrated version will commence on Monday and will hopefully establish quickly any remaining issues, allowing the chapter to continue to use the database as before, with a view to moving on to adding new features that will allow for a better experience all round (including better sign-up forms for new and renewing members, events forms and so on)

Please do feel free to reply here or email me directly (katherine.bavageatwikimedia.org.uk) with questions.

Thanks all! Katherine Bavage (WMUK) (talk) 11:36, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Did this go OK? --MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:49, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
It went pretty awesome - thanks to User:Kelson! We're ironing out two bugs at the moment - one around changing payment statuses, the other about installing the WYSIWYG API - you can view these in Bugzilla if you like. When I'm happy it's essentially as useable as it would have been pre-migration (hopefully before Friday) I'll email all users a link to the log on. THEN we get to the good stuff like redesigning online forms so they are, well, better, and hopefully using the site to collect sign ups for events and so forth. Thanks for asking :-) Katherine Bavage (WMUK) (talk) 11:37, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Alastair McCapra's declaration of interest

I am grateful to see Alastair update his declaration at Declarations_of_Interest#Alastair_McCapra in advance of taking up the role of CEO of CIPR.

CIPR and WMUK have had a productive relationship in the past, however this appears to introduce a direct conflict on interest on the WMUK board. During my time as a trustee and the Chair, the viewpoints of board members were varied, complex and at times heated, with regard to failures of governance within the PR industry, which resulted in a pattern of PR professionals being caught out when covertly attempting to manipulate the content of Wikimedia projects.

In my personal view, though I respect CIPR and the impressive lead it has taken to guide the industry, especially around individual governance, the mission of CIPR is not one that sits well alongside the WMUK mission and values. We now have the situation where a trustee on the board is a paid advocate on behalf of the public relations profession. Having the CEO of CIPR advise the WMUK board is incredibly useful and valuable, having the same person as the WMUK Secretary and a voting trustee, introduces a realistic reputational risk for WMUK to be open to future allegations of using resources and putting political pressure on Wikimedia projects to the benefit of the PR industry.

I would appreciate Alastair's thoughts on how he intends to manage his conflict of interest and whether he believes it is best for the charity to continue as the Secretary and a Trustee on the board in these circumstances.

Should Alastair remain active as a trustee, I call upon the board of trustees to openly publish an independent review of this conflict of interest in advance of Alastair taking up his new role in November. Considering Alastair's appointment was made public more than a fortnight ago and he would have advised his fellow trustees in advance of his appointment, though to my knowledge not before his election at the AGM, I am sure this has been subject to an in-camera review which might now be useful to publish for the benefit of the members of the charity. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:05, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

These two roles are fundamentally incompatible in my view given the respective functions of the two organisations and I do not believe that Alastair can carry out the duties of both jobs without an actual or perceived conflict of interest. Alastair should either resign here or not take up the other job.If he does not he will inevitably be accused, unfairly no doubt, of being a trojan horse for the PR industry. I have met Alastair and he seems a completely ethical individual, however, the very idea that this could be managed or that the two roles could ever be compatible shows an astonishing lack of judgement by Alastair and the current board IMHO. I am sorry to be so blunt. The next time an article on Wikipedia does not go the way the PR industry would like, will he not inevitably be asked to exert pressure via Wikimedia to have it changed? I thought that Wikimedia UK were working to avoid the own-goals that have so damaged us in the past? It would be interesting to know what influence, if any, Alastair's current position here had on his selection for the CIPR job and whether he knew of this potential position at CIPR at the time he stood for the Wikimedia board. Perhaps Alastair could clarify these matters. Philafrenzy (talk) 17:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Fae. Can't say I agree with you here. On the subject of conflicts of interest - Wikimedia UK's work does not really involve the PR industry. We do a great deal of work with the education and culture sectors, but the only project involving the public relations profession that I can recall was the collaboration between volunteers who were Wikimedia UK members and CIPR members to produce what was effectively a guide on how people in PR could understand and respect Wikipedia policies. That was a very worthwhile initiative, but nothing further is planned. We have always been very clear that Wikimedia UK has no control over the content of the Wikimedia projects and even less over the policies governing such content. So I do not see any conflict of interest. Naturally we're all aware of one another's professional backgrounds, which are disclosed on our register of interests, and I am confident that should any potential conflict arise from any quarter it will be identified early and dealt with properly.
Regarding reputational risk, I also can't agree. It's important to note that the CIPR is not a PR firm, it is a professional body which helps ensure that people who work in PR do so competently and ethically. The CIPR has a Code of Conduct for its members which requires them to act with integrity and transparency, principles all Wikimedians will be familiar with. Regards, The Land (talk) 18:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Let's not be naive, the CIPR is not a regulator. It is paid for by the PR industry, its members are PR professionals, its job is to promote the interests of the PR industry and it's code of conduct is written by the PR industry. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
(ec) "Wikimedia UK's work does not really involve the PR industry". I think the "really" tells the story here. Some of what Wikimedia UK does does involve PR firms; and by its very nature that small sliver of its activities are also among the most media-friendly. It will look like a COI to the press. It will look like a COI *problem* to the press. It is sad, really, because the truth of the matter rarely gets a look in. We are forced to (and must) discuss issues like this in terms of appearances and not realities. Jarry1250 (talk) 18:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Indeed, let's not be naive about anything, least of all COI on the Board. But we might try to state a point clearly in terms of the Board's function. Is it to influence Wikipedia content? No. Is it to influence creators and potential creators of Wikipedia content? Certainly. Wikipedia's "interface" with PR professionals is not in a particularly good state, compared to the interface with the "cultural sector", where some good things have been happening, and the educational sector, where some good things might be happening. The suspicion with which it is treated is understandable. The upside of closer contact is fairly easy to explain: if PR pros who muck around on Wikipedia are shown that they are not only behaving unprofessionally, but against their clients' best interests, then they will realise why they should take greater care to respect the terms of use of the site. Not rocket science. The downside is what is generating comment here. Does the Board influence Wikipedia policy? Hardly. Seems to be a presentational matter to me in fact. Now I disclaim expertise in presentational matters. But it seems a shame that this line is being taken: it is not about nuances, it speaks to what the Board does and doesn't have in its remit. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:53, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Charles, the board makes direct choices as to how to spend £750,000 of Wikimedia Foundation funds. This is a great deal of influence to give out jobs and grants and choose what outcomes are required. These outcomes include generating content on Wikimedia projects (such as through Wikimedians in Residence) and co-funding initiatives with other bodies that generate a lot of press interest and media coverage. To say that the board of trustees has no influence over Wikimedia policies is to disregard their influence in controlling who gets funded, for example, to present at events or take part in workshops that create Wikipedia policy, and be the visible face of Wikimedia in the UK and elsewhere. --Fæ (talk) 20:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
So the Board has patronage. I didn't use the expression "Wikimedia policies", which is ambiguous because "Wikimedia" is ambiguous. You make a reasonable point about events, though my impression is that the staff now do a high proportion of the event organisation.. Workshops that create Wikipedia policy? I believe the community does that. Being the "visible face"? I've gone on the BBC to bat for Wikipedia, as have a few others. There is some patronage in sending reps to chapters meetings or funding Wikimania scholarships. Are people's concerns really at this granularity? Of course if you want to make the case that anyone from the PR sector is an entryist and should be treated as such, it is a one-liner. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Chris, please read my statement again. I have asked for a response from Alastair and a follow-up with an independent report. As the current Chairman of the charity, I would expect you to take a lead to ensure these basics are done, in alignment with policies that we established to cover these situations. You appear to be disagreeing with what you imagine I am asking for, rather than what has actually been written. I see nothing for you to disagree with in a basic request for openness with the members of the charity and for the charity to be conducting itself with the best possible governance processes. If you are disagreeing with an independent review or are disagreeing with Alastair making a response, then I would appreciate a better explanation of why you, as the Chair, believe these are bad things.
By the way, I suggest members carefully review CIPR's mission statement, it unambiguously states it exists as an "advocate and voice of the public relations profession", it is not just about ethics. I doubt the public would have any other expectation than the CEO of the organization to also be an advocate for the PR sector and present it in the best possible light at every opportunity. --Fæ (talk) 19:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, it has been known for the Board to be used as a soapbox. For example to be an advocate for free software, and present it in the best possible light at every opportunity. Certainly we should not be naive about this kind of thing, when it runs counter to the purposes of the charity. Might be rather easier to do in the case of someone with a clearcut day job. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


Dear all - thanks for the comments. Having spoken to Alastair, he's keen to respond to the points that have been raised, and expects to be able to do so by the weekend. Philafrenzy referred to the lessons of the last year - one of the main ones is that the trust of the membership and the Wikimedia community is vital - and we'll respond to this debate accordingly. The Land (talk) 20:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


Hi - Sorry it has taken me a bit of time to reply to the points made above. First I’d like to say I understand why there is concern about conflict of interests on the Board. Anything which looks like it might corrupt the integrity of the encyclopedia is a potential threat, and WMUK has suffered badly in recent years from conflicts of interest which have cost it a lot and which nobody wants to repeat. Second I want to acknowledge the particular concerns people have about some members of the PR industry.

I am not a PR professional and had no previous connection with the PR business before applying for a job as CEO of CIPR. Coincidentally this was around the same time I stood for election as a WMUK trustee. I had applied for the job at CIPR before the WMUK AGM, and had my first interview a couple of weeks after I was elected to the Board. I was aware before I stood for election of many of the problems which WMUK has had to deal with recently, but wasn’t aware of the problems that had arisen as a result of Wikipedia editors defending the integrity of the encyclopedia from people who perhaps did not understand what the purpose of Wikipedia is. As a prospective employee I had to declare my various interests, including my recent WMUK election, to CIPR before I accepted the job, and I did so. I only learned of the issues which are causing concern here when I was made aware of them by CIPR after I had accepted the job.

I am very clear about what my role as a trustee is. It is to advance the charitable objects of WMUK in the public interest. Those are to promote and support the widest possible public access to, use of and contribution to open content of an encyclopaedic or educational nature. I am not there to advocate the cause of the PR profession, or to secure some kind of rule-bending on behalf of PRs working for their clients. Every trustee on the Board has a daytime job to which they give their full professional commitment, and none of us acts as an advocate for that industry or interest on the WMUK Board.

The reasons I stood for election to the WMUK Board are simple. Firstly, I believe in the project of building free, open knowledge all round the world, and in particular, in the immense benefit to humanity of a universal encyclopedia. Secondly, I am an experienced trustee and manager of small charities. I have dealt with dire financial crises, major overhauls of governance, and most of the other problems that beset charities at one time or another. I believed, as I still do, that my experience and skills can make a useful contribution to WMUK and that I can help it specifically to get itself out of the difficulties it got itself into in the last couple of years over governance. I currently serve on the Audit and Risk Committee where I am helping establish reliable financial controls, and as Secretary I am working to clear the backlog of unpublished minutes of Board meetings, or parts of meetings, which stretches back to 2009. I have also met with representatives of WMF and talked to them about the changes we are bringing about in the UK chapter, with a view to their agreeing, in due course, to allow us to take part in future fundraisers.

The question has been asked as to how I think I will manage my conflict of interest. I think I would genuinely have a conflict of interest if I had any desire or inclination to argue, in the WMUK Board, for some special treatment of PR professionals or for some bending or relaxing of Wikipedia editing rules. However, I don’t have any desire or intention to do this, and it is not part of my new job to speak up for bad editing or to defend the practices of PR professionals who don't follow WM rules.

As it happens, well before I had any contact with either Wikipedia or CIPR, the two bodies had collaborated to produce guidelines for best practice on the part of PR professionals on Wikipedia, and these are published on the WMUK site at https://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Draft_best_practice_guidelines_for_PR . They represent the official CIPR position. Despite this, I think it is possible, in my new role, that I may be approached by some CIPR members who are unaware of these guidelines, asking me to ‘do something’ about ‘their’ article. If I am, I will refer them to this page. If there appears to be a widespread and persistent problem with CIPR members reading or abiding by those guidelines, then I will propose some training sessions to help them get their heads round it. In the extremely unlikely event that one of my employers becomes threatening in their demands that I conspire to subvert the encyclopedia, I will bring a professional conduct complaint against them. However, in considering what pressures I may come under in my new role, I take comfort in the fact that the incoming CIPR President, Stephen Waddington, authored a chapter on Wikipedia in a recently published handbook for PR Professionals, in which he restates what is set out in the guidelines above.

If some community members are inclined to assume bad faith on my part, or just some ethical fuzziness, such suspicions are perhaps natural as I am new, you don’t know me, and my new job stirs up understandable anxieties. However if this is how you feel I hope you will at least have enough faith in the integrity of other Board members to believe that they would absolutely not tolerate any inappropriate behaviour on my part, and if they thought I was trying to open the encyclopedia to manipulation I would be removed from the Board pretty quickly.

Aside from whether I might be tempted to try and undermine the cause I stood for election to uphold, the question has been raised about the reputational risk of my continuing to serve as a trustee. As I say I understand the reasons why some community members may have anxieties about my roles, but outside of this community I’d be very surprised if anyone was much interested. The conflicts between PRs and editors is pretty big news in the Wikipedia community and fairly big in the PR profession, but not of much interest outside of that.

The question has also been raised about the press and what they might make of my roles. If you have a look at what negative stories tend to run in the press about Wikipedia, it is usually about hoaxes, inaccuracies, trustees being paid to work on projects, and pornography. Would the press really get excited about my job? It doesn't seem likely to me.

Perhaps I am just not being sufficiently imaginative in my thinking about these issues and others can foresee scenarios that it would be potentially much more difficult for me to handle. If so, by all means raise them here as I need to think about these issues and my fellow Board members need to be mindful of them too. What kind of difficult position do you think I might find myself in?

Fae has suggested that there should be an independent review of this matter and in fact we are about to undertake an independent governance review in any case to see how the charity is responding to past criticisms and dealing with its problems. I think it would make sense for the consultants to give us their view on this matter.

For now, my commitment to working for WMUK is undimmed, I wish to continue to serve on the Board and don’t feel, on the basis of what has been said above, that there is a strong case for my not doing so.

Thanks

Mccapra (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

In order to have the fullest discussion possible I have posted this matter on Jimbo's talk page, one of our unofficial noticeboards. Here is the link and comments so far. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:02, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
From the beginning, we've had trustees who have day jobs, in which capacity they are paid to work for different causes. We've had trustees who are communications professionals. We've had trustees who have changed day jobs while in post. From the above complaints I still don't see why this case is different. The speculation that "The next time an article on Wikipedia does not go the way the PR industry would like, will he not inevitably be asked to exert pressure via Wikimedia to have it changed?" misunderstands the relation between the chapter and Wikipedia (as though the chapter can "have it changed"!) Did having an employee of Manchester University on the board mean that Wikipedia policies might be changed, or funds allocated, to the benefit of Manchester University? I also disagree with Jarry that we must discuss appearances rather than reality. Are there people really wishing for Wikimedia politics to become like Westminster politics? Given the amount of experience of charity governance now on the Board, and the scrutiny the organisation is voluntarily under, the idea that Alastair is going to "trojan horse" something against Wikimedia's interest, and that the Board are going to allow him, seems more than far-fetched. If we're keen to avoid own goals, then let's avoid undermining a dedicated and capable volunteer. MartinPoulter (talk) 10:07, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
This case is different and it should be obvious why. We need to stop walking into these bear traps (I won't name them all) and then having to spend a year commissioning governance reviews to sort them out. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:28, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
As the employee of the University of Manchester that Martin refers to, I'd note that I had a very clear declaration of interest and statement of how that interest would be managed - "Mike is an employee of the University of Manchester. Some of our activities take place at this University, and he will abstain on all decisions relating to the University of Manchester." Indeed, during the July 2013 board meeting there was a decision relating to the UoM (funding a WiR there), and I duly abstained from it. I would encourage Alastair to do something similar - rather than just stating the CoI, clearly set out the terms for how it will be managed to avoid it being an issue. Although in this case the management will be more complex as it would extend not just to the CIPR, but also the organisations it represents, I think this could still be a managable CoI providing that there is a clear line set in place well before he takes up the position. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 10:16, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
How can I put this in simple terms? The Vegetarian Association and the National Beef Association may wish to understand each other better, but they can never fundamentally be in sympathy and you can never imagine the head of the National Beef Association being a senior figure in the Vegetarian Association can you? Philafrenzy (talk) 11:10, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

The comments above are all helpful in terms of setting out what I think the issue is here – particularly the Vegetarian/National Beef Association one. If I was a trustee of the Vegetarian Association but taking a paid job with the League for the Introduction of meat-based products into vegetarian recipes, I would clearly have a total conflict of interest. Supposing however I took a paid job with a non-Vegetarian association which had a published policy directing its members to respect and abide by the nutritional rules of the Vegetarian Association when dealing with it? That’s actually the situation I’m in. My future employer is on of the few organisations in the country which has explicitly directed its members to follow Wikipedia rules. If CIPR members don’t follow the rules they are not just damaging the encyclopedia, they are failing to abide by the guidance given to them by their professional body. That does not leave much room for conflict. The reference to Mike Peel’s employment is also illustrative of what the term ‘conflict of interest’ actually means (as in, it doesn’t mean ‘something I don’t much like the sound of’). While Mike was on the WMUK Board there was a possibility that the chapter could discuss funding a project at Manchester or somehow involving them, which would potentially put Mike in the position of taking part in a discussion as a funder with an entity being funded. I know from personal experience that Mike was absolutely scrupulous about making sure this did not happen. I doubt it is likely that the WMUK Board would be discussing funding something with CIPR. If it does discuss something of this sort, I will act as Mike did and take no part in it. The same would apply to any trustee in any job. Mike has also pointed out that I need to make a statement about how I will manage any conflicts of interest which may arise, and I will do so. A statement will need to cover as many ‘what if’ scenarios as possible. As I mentioned earlier today it would be helpful to me in thinking about this for people to come forward with ‘what if’ questions so that I can set out clearly what I would do in each case and include all of that in my statement. Thanks Mccapra (talk) 12:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I must admit I wonder why Alistair feels it appropriate to encourage members to spend their time coming up with a series of "What if" scenarios, when he should be encouraging us to contribute towards Wikipedia and its sister projects. The very fact, which he supports, that there are a range of unpredictable scenarios would seem to indicate that this is a matter which cannot be effectively dealt with by a statement. When he points out that his future employers are one of "the few organisations in the country which has explicitly directed its members to follow Wikipedia rules", far from indicating a lack of conflict of interest, this rather indicates the contrary: for most organisations there is no specific reason to issue such guidance. As a trustee Alistair should be looking at the matter from the perspective of the charity, and I hope he will consider the situation fully before embroils us all in another governance debate.Leutha (talk) (Sorry I forget to log in before) 14:53, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm really not intending to ask anyone to spend a lot of time on this or embroil anyone in anything. However I would appreciate it if some of those are arguing strongly that there is obviously a conflict of interest could spell out how, in practical terms, they think this might present itself. I can think of a few not very likely scenarios, which I have mentioned above. But clearly some people feel there are aspects of this I have not fully addressed. What are they? Thanks Mccapra (talk) 16:06, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
CIPR define public relations as "the discipline which looks after reputation, with the aim of earning understanding and support and influencing opinion and behaviour." (my italics) The second of our five pillars states that Wikipedia is written from a neutral point of view. The essential job of the PR is to influence and manipulate public opinion to favour their client. This fundamentally conflicts with one of our highest principles and is why this appointment is a problem and why it is different from any other appointment. Aggravating factors include the already fraught relationship with the PR industry, which should serve as a warning to us, the disparity in commitment (full time CIPR, part time here) and pay (salaried I assume there, nothing here). No PR firm will ever seek any form of balance in their work. The work is essentially partisan and therefore the whole ethos of the profession is contrary to our values. A man cannot serve two masters, particularly where their objectives are fundamentally in conflict and where one pays and the other doesn't. It lacks credibility. Philafrenzy (talk) 17:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
It may not be Alistair's intention to sap volunteers' time or embroil people, however this clearly what is happening as I find myself once again contributing to this discussion. I feel that his focus on his own psychological state (i.e. intentions) rather than on the consequences of his retaining both roles as Wikimedia UK Trustee and CIPR CEO illustrates the point I made above. I am also left wondering whether his failure to respond to my point is indicative that he hopes to discourage further critical comment by simply ignoring it! So perhaps I should be content myself with suggesting that Jimbo has made the point in a much better way than me:
"It is obviously a conflict of interest and clearly demands a choice between one or the other. There is no shame in that - such is the nature of nonprofit work. But especially for Wikimedia UK, with a history of problems in this area, it's absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt something that has to be handled with the utmost defensiveness about the reputation of the organization. I trust that Alastair will do the right thing." (See here)
Leutha (talk) 22:41, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Leutha and Philafrenzy. Some conflicts of interest can be managed. Mike Peel's employment by Manchester University is a good example. In these cases, setting out how the conflict will be managed and then managing it in an open way are, hopefully, sufficient. Some conflicts relate to the very purpose of organisations. These conflicts are effectively impossible to manage. The potentially problematic situations can not be listed in advance. They are infinite in their variety. Even if, as situations arise, the correct decisions are made, it will be impossible for the community to be confident of that. Alastair can not be expected to document his every conversation, still less his every thought. Yaris678 (talk) 10:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any problem in this case. Secretary of WMUK is not a position that comes into conflict with CEO of CIPR. WMUK as a whole has limited, if any, impact on public relations involvement in Wikipedia (positive or negative). Secretary is also not a good position from which to easily subvert the chapter and begin infiltrating the entire organisation. Even if, say, Alastair starts laughing maniacally the moment he becomes CEO and pushes for edit-a-thons and training sessions on white-washing biographies it (a) isn't going to mean anything because anyone else can undo it, (b) it will be really obvious if this happens, and (c) he isn't the only trustee. If anything, I expect the influence to work the other way: CEO of a national professional body is a position from which influence extends (and by which Wikimedia could subvert and infiltrate, etc). - AdamBMorgan (talk) 05:12, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
You have identified one unlikely scenario that could be dealt with easily. But you seem to be missing my point that the purposes of the organisations are in conflict. FWIW, I don't suspect Alastair of being part of any plot and I really hope he can be part of there being a good relationship between WMUK and CIPR. However, he can't do that by holding both roles simultaneously. By having this unmanageable conflict of interest he could easily and unintentionally end up doing harm to both organisations. Yaris678 (talk) 09:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
I also don't suspect Alastair of being part of a plot but we can't know what was in the minds of the CIPR selectors when they gave him the job as Chief Exec in an industry in which, as he says, he had no past experience. I realise that Alastair had senior experience in similar membership organisations that no doubt fitted him for the job but there were, I expect, other candidates. The relationship with Wikipedia is certainly one of the hot issues in the PR world and given the poor quality of many of our articles I don't blame them. If I was a PR I would really want to ensure that my client's article reflected well on my client since it will be on the first page of a Google search every time and probably the top result. I would want to exert whatever influence I could to improve that article. That's what the PR industry is paid to do. It's not good enough to say "it probably won't happen" or "there is not much scope for it to happen" or "we will spot it if it does happen" or "the other Trustees will reign Alastair in" or any of the other things mentioned above. The Charities Commission has some useful comments about what they define as a "conflict of loyalty" which is also mentioned in the Companies Act 2006 in reference to Directors of charitable companies (we are caught by both sets of rules). Section d. here says conflicts of interest include those arising from "conflicts of duty which do not involve any material benefit to a director, for example, where a director is also a charity trustee of another charity which might be in competition with the charity ("conflicts of loyalty")" I don't think CIPR is a charity but the concept of a conflict of loyalty certainly seems to sum up what we have here. There is a risk of reputational damage to Wikimedia UK, to the CIPR and to Alastair himself that we would all be wise to avoid. In fact, I am a little surprised that CIPR, if they are as principled as they say they are, have not asked Alastair to resign here. Why haven't they? Philafrenzy (talk) 10:34, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
It has now been one week since Fae raised this here and I suspect that everyone who is going to add their views has done so. The matter has also been on Jimbo's talk page and in the Signpost. I believe I am correct that there does appear to be a consensus, including from certain people whose views we should respect, that this appointment represents a serious conflict of interest. Perhaps Alastair and the board could comment on what action, if any, they propose to take in this matter? I would be particularly interested to know whether any legal advice has been taken regarding the "conflict of loyalty" question and what the result of that advice was. I am sure nobody wants to give the impression that they are hoping the matter will just go away. Given the past problems in this area it is essential that a clear and robust rationale is given for any decisions taken. If the matter is still under discussion, please say so and give a timeline for when it may be resolved. Philafrenzy (talk) 11:39, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi Philafrenzy - yes, happy to update you. We discussed this at the Board meeting on Saturday. The Board's view was that there was not a fundamental conflict between the two roles. It was important to us in reaching that conclusion that CIPR's formal position is that their members should respect Wikipedia policies and that deliberately seeking to circumvent those policies is unethical professional conduct. It is also worth noting that previously we have had Trustees who were professional media consultants without a scintilla of a suggestion that this conflicted with their role as Wikimedia UK trustees and directors.
Given the sensitivities of this and the views expressed here, Alastair and I are going to meet later this week to go through different scenarios that might be problematic and work out how we would handle each of them, and use that as the basis of a more thorough declaration along the lines of Mike Peel's suggestion. It is possible in that conversation we will find something that makes us think "actually this isn't going to work", but assuming that doesn't happen, Alastair will remain a valuable Trustee.
We are currently having our progress against the Hudson Review recommendations audited by a consultant called Rosie Chapman. We will ask her to review how we've handled this and include that in her report. The Land (talk) 19:57, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Alastair, you said above, "If you have a look at what negative stories tend to run in the press about Wikipedia, it is usually about hoaxes, inaccuracies, trustees being paid to work on projects, and pornography. Would the press really get excited about my job? It doesn't seem likely to me." If I look at the types of negative stories that have run in the press, one consistent theme – almost a meme, really – is covert exercise of influence on Wikipedia's content by PR professionals. Indeed, I have myself had a hand in alerting the press to several cases of this type. I can assure you that the press's interest in this type of story is significant, and rightly so, as there are few other scenarios more likely to undermine the credibility of Wikipedia than this one. Jimmy Wales has on several occasions been very outspoken about this matter and made comments that have attracted significant attention.

Now, like most matters related to Wikipedia, there are two sides to this issue.

On the one hand, Wikipedia is extremely vulnerable to both subtle and gross bias and defamation. I would like PR professionals to have a seat at the Wikipedia table: there should be a much better-functioning mechanism for people to make complaints about how they are being portrayed in Wikipedia than there is at present. As it is, I cannot morally judge companies and other organisations who make clandestine use of commercial editing services to ensure that they are not being misrepresented in Wikipedia, given that Wikipedia's gates are wide open to clandestine bias and defamation from those companies' and organisations' detractors.

On the other hand, we are seeing more and more advice columns from PR professionals on how to leverage Wikipedia in their clients' or employers' interest. This includes both denigrating competitors, and sanitising one's own entry and/or making it as positive and compelling as possible. Allowing this to go on unchecked is not in the readers' or Wikipedia's interest.

The CIPR has done good work with WMUK in the past to outline some basic terms of engagement. But it cannot be denied that the interface between the PR industry and Wikipedia is among the biggest challenges both Wikipedia and the PR industry face. It is not a settled area; there are still diverse views, from Jimmy Wales' outspoken hostility to PR efforts in Wikipedia to the German model where PR professionals are invited to register verified company accounts ("User:Coca Cola Germany") and contribute in a transparent way. Dirk Franke in Germany is currently conducting a major study of paid editing for Wikimedia, and will I believe report in a few months' time. There is also uncertainty about the legal situation, at least in the EU – see [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2012-11-12/News_and_notes this Signpost article. To my mind there is no doubt that the interaction between the PR industry and Wikipedia is an area that will continue to be negotiated and re-negotiated over the coming years (including, perhaps, the legal arena, to clarify what the law does and does not allow). The outcome of all these discussions is of vital interest to both parties and the public.

Wikimedia UK has played a significant role in this process in the past, and will continue to do so. However, it follows that your having a leadership role in both organisations, simultaneously, constitutes an ineluctable conflict of interest whenever the topic is raised, and that it will be perceived as such by the media and public. A collegial and productive relationship between WMUK and CIPR is, I believe, desirable, and as I say, there is past good work to build on here. But I believe that having one person perform a leadership role in both organisations will ultimately prove to be to the detriment of both. It will certainly make WMUK vulnerable. Regards, Andreas JN 18:54, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out and explaining aspects of this matter which may, as you indicate, have a bearing on whether or not I can continue to serve as a trustee. My belief is that as between my future employer and Wikimedia UK, these questions are settled, but as you point out there are much wider dimensions to be considered.
It may well be that for one reason or another my employment puts me in situations where I do indeed have a conflict of interest. If that turns out to be the case I am aware that I may have to resign. I certainly do not want to give everyone the impression that I am just insisting on carrying on, regardless of the circumstances.
For the time being, I have not even started to work for CIPR, so no situation of possible conflict has even arisen. The Wikimedia UK Board has discussed the situation and concluded, unanimously, that there is no reason for me to resign for the time being. Equally, if circumstances change, they may well come to a different view. I will be discussing the situation with our independent governance reviewer, and it may be that they will advise the Board that I should resign, in which case I will. I am certainly not interested in exposing Wikimedia UK to criticism or embarrassment. On the question of press interest, you may be aware that energetic efforts were made last week to interest the press in my two roles, and there was no interest whatsoever. What I do maintain, for now, is that there is nothing automatic in my roles which forces me to resign at once. If the situation changes, I won’t need pushing. Mccapra (talk) 21:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

I am disappointed that the board does not appear to have followed the processes that the previous board laid down after the lessons learned from how to manage Roger Bamkin's declared interest. There is no plan independently to manage Alastair's declared interest, with the default path of the Chair taking the lead seeming inappropriate as he started this discussion with the point of view that he could see no problem or risk to the charity.

Alastair actively failed to inform the board of trustees or the members of the charity in advance of being elected that he was planning to be paid as an advocate of the PR industry during his time as a trustee. There is no doubt that his election as a trustee would have been taken into consideration by CIPR as a direct benefit to his forthcoming job as their CEO. I am astonished that as a candidate for CEO of CIPR, Alastair states he knew nothing of the past work of CIPR with WMUK, or the associated controversies that have damaged Wikimedia's reputation. Such a lack of basic research from a prospective trustee is itself worrying. I now regret the two votes I used to support Alastair at the AGM (I was handling a proxy vote in addition to my own). Alistair would have lost many votes had he chosen to be frank about his plans. I have little doubt that he would not have been elected a trustee had this been openly discussed; certainly as a trustee at that time I would have advised him against running as a candidate had he chosen to consult the board on the potential risk.

The board of trustees is straining credibility by creating new artificial distinctions to justify Alastair's position as not a "fundamental" conflict of interest. No such distinction is recognized by the Charity Commission on handling conflicts of loyalty, or by the policies that pre-existed the board discovering this COI after it was announced in the press. During my time improving the governance processes of the charity in 2011/12, it was clear that a trustee does not need a "fundamental" COI to be expected to step down from the board. The convention is that any conflict of loyalties that may sway the board's opinion on how to deploy its resources or influence should be managed carefully and where doubt remains the simplest resolution is for the trustee to step down.

Alastair, please take the initiative and step down as a trustee. As Yaris678 points out, you do not have the confidence of the community you were elected by. This ongoing risk to the charity exists because you failed to manage your declaration in a timely or appropriate manner either with the members or the board of trustees. The story is dogging you as a scandal on the English Wikipedia (Signpost), on Jimmy Wales' talk page, else where off-wiki, and is unlikely to go away with the classic trick of re-framing rather than real action on your part.

I count 5 members have expressed serious concern here, as I recall it only takes this many to force the board to organize an EGM to resolve this problem should they not be able to do so. --Fæ (talk) 09:45, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Fae, I'm finding your comments here a little difficult to square with either the facts of the situation or your own previous conduct. The facts are that we have identified this well in advance of Alastair taking up this post and are looking at the issues posed in some detail prior to coming to a decision, and we are doing so with external advice. A number of members have expressed their views here, with a number of very cogent points being made on both sides of the debate, which are informing the outcome. Thinking this through is in line with our policies and with governance best practice. Knee-jerk reactions and drama are not in line with governance best practice.
It's also apparent that you are applying a very different standard to this situation than you did to yourself last year, when you clung on to the position of Chair as long as possible after you were banned from the English Wikipedia. The media coverage that resulted significantly damaged the reputation of the charity, and you would be wise to remember your own history before talking about failures by others. Regards, The Land (talk) 10:58, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Chris, this is an example of the sort of pointless re-framing rather than action that I referred to. This discussion is about Alastair's resignation as a trustee, not mine. I am sure that a few members would find the history of your manipulative gaming, or the fact that you gave me and Mike a clear steer in Milan that you intended to step down as Chair soon after the AGM but have failed to do so, instead giving yourself at least the rest of this year even though Mike and I have now resigned ourselves from the board, quite interesting and an insight into the shenanigans that go on in-camera against the supposed "openness" the charity is supposed to value. However most members would find this boring or upsetting to review. Your political skills and associated professional background, or ability to bury and distract from your inappropriate conflict of loyalties while holding the post of Chair, is not the topic here and you might be better off not opening up every possible Pandora's box in your attempt to win what you see as an argument worth taking bad tempered pot-shots as me long after I have resigned as a trustee, rather than a serious governance issue for the charity, that you, as the current Chair, are supposed to take a lead in resolving by guiding Alastair to "do the right thing" as Jimmy Wales has recommended. Please properly fulfil the role of Chair in line with the policies of the charity, or step aside and let one of the more dispassionate trustees take a lead. --Fæ (talk) 11:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
I think I've been pretty clear about the action that's going on. However, for clarity: Alastair and I are looking at scenarios where the two positions might conflict, establishing whether we think those scenarios can appropriately be handled by recusal. If there is an actual situation which cannot be handled appropriately then Alastair will resign now. If there are hypothetical situations which cannot be handled appropriately then we will set out how to identify them if they occur and what to do if they do.
I don't really see how doing this constitutes re-framing, manipulative gaming, or any of the other things you're accusing me of. Regards, The Land (talk) 12:15, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
Wikimedia UK having a Chairman on the board of trustees is not intended to stop other trustees answering questions for themselves. Alastair is a PR professional and an elected trustee, so I feel he can probably reply for himself. I have asked for Alastair to resign now in order to remove the reputational risk he has become for the charity, conclude the debate his conflict of loyalties as a paid advocate for the PR industry has created, and out of personal respect for the votes of members that now feel let down by not being informed of the full facts at the time of the AGM. It seems pointless for Alastair's resignation to be left until he starts his role as CEO of CIPR when this was announced in the press a month ago.
By the way, if you insist on going on a delaying tangent by examining hypothetical avenues and scenario planning (this is hardly a complex situation, so I don't see why this takes more than 15 minutes), I suggest you start with "Members request an EGM", the resolution of which is that Alastair resigns before the EGM can be held and preferably before an EGM is proposed. --Fæ (talk) 12:58, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Guys,

  1. Please try to refrain from personal attacks on each other and, where possible, on Alastair.
  2. For the record, I'd didn't actually say the the community doesn't have confidence in Alastair. I said it would be impossible to have confidence in the right decisions having been made. Arguably the effect is the same, but, as per 1, let's try not to be personal about this.
  3. Taking time to consider scenarios implies you either didn't read this comment, above, or you just disagree with it. Any particular reason? Please don't just say that you disagree that the purposes are in conflict. That would be saying that you disagree because you disagree.

Yaris678 (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Yaris. Just wanted to respond quickly to your third point before most likely going offline for a few days. If I have understood the point that you and others are making correctly, it is roughly as follows: "The purpose of public relations as a profession is to promote selective and partial interpretations of facts, and this in itself conflicts with the concept of providing a neutral information resource like Wikipedia, which means being someone who promotes PR means you can't also be responsible for promoting Wikipedia". Please correct me if I haven't grasped that correctly.
The reasons why I personally disagree with that view are several, both philosophical and practical. On a philosophical level, it's worth pointing out that selective and biased information resources have always co-existed with those that aim at neutrality, truth, balance or something else, and the promotion of the one does not necessarily mean the rejection of the other. It would be pretty rubbish to have encyclopedia articles that had the content of press releases, and also pretty rubbish to have press releases that had the content of encyclopedia articles. But the existence of the press release doesn't mean there is no need for the encyclopedia, or vice versa.
On a more mundane level I also think it's not that unusual to find people who in their professional lives have the responsibility to communicate in their employer's interests. For instance, I'm a fundraiser - if you read any fundraising letters I produce at work, you will find that they present the causes I work for in the best possible light to encourage people to make donations. We also have lawyers on the Board, and lawyers at work have a professional responsibility to present their client's case as effectively as possible (within the bounds of law and professional ethics, of course). I do not think there is a big gap between the positions of lawyer or fundraiser and that of public relations person. Indeed, we and other entities in the Wikimedia movement have had Board members who have worked in public relations one way or another in the past.
This is why I believe this question is a practical one of "how might these positions conflict and would it be possible to handle it if they do". One area which would make it impossible for Alastair to continue would be if the CIPR had public views which were opposed to Wikimedia UK's views or values. Fortunately on the most important of these areas - how PR people should treat Wikipedia - the CIPR has a firm position saying "follow Wikipedia policies" and regards it as unethical to do otherwise. Of course there are other potential problems and it is those we are looking at.
I hope this makes sense, and if I haven't got your point correctly, please let me know. I don't think the situation is an obvious one. I hope that we'll reach a position where either we are being very clear about how we'll handle any prospective conflict that might arise, which will give reassurance to people who (like you) are worried about the situation - however, it's also possible that potential conflicts are too serious and too likely for Alastair to continue as a Trustee, in which case we'll have made that decision in the right way. The Land (talk) 19:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
You argue above, if I understand your position correctly, that true impartiality is impossible so we should just manage the risk through a complicated set of rules to avoid problems on a case by case basis. The point others are making is that the situation is inherently unmanageable. How can we, Alastair or CIPR be sure that decisions taken in one venue or the other are not going to adversely effect a client of a CIPR member or one of our projects? As has been said, the range of possible scenarios is simply too great and we do not have complete knowledge of the interests of every client of a CIPR member and which particular version of the truth they may be seeking to promote at any given time. Unlike a lawyer or fundraiser who might have a particular client about whom conflicts may be fairly readily identified, and for whom Wikipedia is probably a fairly minor concern, the PR industry is a business whose stock in trade is the manipulation of the truth and which has a track record of acting against us. We are rightly wary of them. If he takes up the job, Alastair will have a duty to promote the interests of people we have good reason not to trust. Philafrenzy (talk) 21:33, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
I think it may be useful to have another look at the piece Jane Wilson wrote for "Huffinton Post Tech UK" back in May last year: PR: If You Want to Understand Wikipedia, Become a Wikipedian. She concludes with the reflection "The first step is always the most difficult, but is also the most important." I am afraid I cannot agree with her. Perhaps she did not imagine a "scenario" where someone slipping into her shoes as CIPR CEO would also feel comfortable continuing as a Wikimedia UK Trustee. (She wrote this piece in her capacity as CEO of the Chartered Institute of Public Relations.) It is not a matter of there being a "potential" Conflict of Interest, Alastair is stepping into a key role in an organisation which already has a distinct interest in relation to Wikimedia UK. Please also note that WMUK employees from time to time have meetings with CIPR (such as this). Now I find myself in a tricky situation as regards chasing up Stevie as regards what happened at that meeting. Leutha (talk) 00:40, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Some of the assumptions are interesting:
  • "the question of the most appropriate way to engage with audiences through Wikipedia" We are not here for this purpose.
  • "If Wikipedia is an element in your online reputation management strategy" Nor this.
  • "Wikipedians and ethically minded public relations professionals share similar goals -providing accurate, factual, and up-to-date information" We may share those goals but they don't share our additional goals of neutrality, impartiality and avoiding advocacy, quite the opposite in fact. When was the last time a PR firm put anything in the public domain that might reflect poorly on one of their customers?
Mutual understanding? Dialogue? Codes of conduct? All yes. Good friends who share our values? No. Philafrenzy (talk) 01:57, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I'm keeping out of this debate as it's important that it takes place within the community. I do, however, want to respond to Leutha's comment above. Leutha, I'm not sure why you find yourself in a "tricky situation as regards chasing up Stevie". You, and anyone else within our community, are always welcome to ask me about my work. The meeting you point to, I remember very well actually. Checking my diary, it was on Friday 15 March. I met with Gemma Griffiths, a member of the CIPR's social media panel (who also has her own PR agency). We met at Shoreditch Grind for coffee (which I remember came in a glass the size of a thimble and was expensive and lukewarm - but I guess that's Shoreditch for you). We spoke about the potential for doing an updated version of the guidelines that you link to. We both felt that it would be a useful exercise but that it wasn't a priority for either of us or our organisations. The intention was to float the idea with both our communities over the summer but this hasn't happened because a) everyone is busy and b) there isn't an urgent need. You may also be interested to know that I visited the CIPR offices in Russell Square on the previous Thursday (8 March) along with Dirk Franke from WMDE who was visiting our office with some colleagues. While there we met with Gemma, Andy Ross of the CIPR and another CIPR officer, whose name escapes me (could be Francis Ingham). There were two reasons for my visit. Firstly, it made sense for someone to take Dirk along as London is a confusing city for visitors and it's easy to get lost. Secondly, I wanted to learn about Dirk's research into paid editing on the German Wikipedia. He was already scheduled to speak with CIPR about this so I went along to learn about it. It's very interesting and I'm looking forward to reading his report when it is ready. I hope this helps and please, don't think of asking me about my work as a tricky situation. I'm quite approachable and don't usually bite so please feel free to ask me. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:08, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I am sorry if it appeared I was suggesting that Stevie is anyway unapproachable. The trickiness of the situation was basically as Stevie put it, he's trying to keep out of this debate. By the way, thanks for the info (I have something not directly related to this discussion to take up with Dirk.) Leutha (talk) 14:02, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, Leutha. I appreciate your comment and I apologise for not updating that page at the time. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:29, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
May we have an update from the board and Alistair regarding what action, if any, is taking place on this matter with some dates? Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 13:28, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Philafrenzy: I think the draft minutes now up at Minutes 14Sep13#AM potential CoI should answer your question. I'm not sure we have dates yet as Chris is on holiday this week, but I know it's being worked on. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 14:24, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Edit break

The Board minutes were clear enough, though the board seems to have an odd view of the discussion on this page as the minutes make it sound like this thread is a resounding success for Alastair, when it looks pretty ghastly from where I am sitting. I would like to see Alastair reply to my request above, and consider the statement from Jimmy Wales, for him to do the right thing and step down as a trustee, after failing to manage a declaration in a timely or appropriate manner either with the members of the charity, or the board of trustees, rather than having replies through second parties or leaving the members to deduce what might have been said from carefully worded reports of closed meetings long after the fact. Had the members been told before voting at the AGM that one of the candidates was planning to soon become a paid advocate of the PR industry, there is no doubt that Alastair and the charity would not be in the current situation. --Fæ (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree the minutes sound a bit rosier than this discussion (although I perhaps think the consensus here is less "ghastly" than you do). I'm also not certain the the claim "Had the members been told before voting at the AGM that one of the candidates was planning to soon become a paid advocate of the PR industry, there is no doubt that Alastair and the charity would not be in the current situation" is obviously true, and I think you're implying some bad faith on timing here, which I think has been refuted above. As for the J'Wales comment while I think that view should be taken into consideration, it'd be a bit weird if we start deferring to Jimmy Wales on every disagreement...and there's far more discussion going on here than there was on that post (unless there's another section I've missed). Not sure what I think of this potential COI, but I think new points would be more useful than returning to these ones again Sjgknight (talk) 15:49, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
In terms of timing, Alastair, nor any other member of the board, has yet confirmed in writing exactly when he first informed the board about accepting the job. I believe the board was only told after this became an issue on Wikipediocracy, a couple of weeks after CIPR put out a press release. If this is the case, then timing is a problem, as Alastair had several months in advance of this to informally approach his fellow trustees about a potential conflict of loyalties, or openly advise the members about these events, but chose to act and update his declaration of interests when it was too late for the members to use the information to influence their votes and only after the press already had a version of events and the board of trustees were in a position of reacting to events and attempting to quench the exposure rather than planning and seeking advice on a potential risk. Conflict of Interest Policy states "Trustees must not use their Wikimedia UK position or title to advance any private interests", there is no doubt that CIPR knew about his position as a trustee of WMUK when deciding whether to appoint Alastair and CIPR were fully aware of their effective partnership with WMUK even if Alastair was not, as they had worked closely with the charity on guidelines for Wikipedia and even presented at our 2012 AGM. I would expect Alastair included his position as trustee in his portfolio and would have discussed it during interviews, it's up to Alastair if he wants to set the record straight and make a full explanation to the members about how and at what point his position as trustee became relevant to his new job. The same policy states "Any board member's potential conflict of interest must be discussed with the Chair or the full board before any decision is made", this did not happen. If you contrast this with Roger Bamkin's behaviour, the board was informed about a potential contract well in advance and I had time on behalf of the board to seek independent advice which we fully followed. If you contrast with the press interest in me, I reviewed this potential risk with the board months before it became a public problem. I do not see the board responding more openly now, or in a more timely fashion, than we did with those events, in fact the process followed today seems less effective by only reacting to events and is being controlled by the Chair who has stated here that he sees no problem and has only acted after repeated complaints from members, a situation that I would expect the board to pick up on, and put someone with an independent viewpoint in charge of a COI review.
With regard to Jimmy Wales, the board has no duty to ignore his comments, and I used the word "consider", not expecting to just do whatever Jimmy Wales says blindly. At the moment neither Alastair nor the board has responded directly to Jimmy Wales' statement as far as I can tell. --Fæ (talk) 06:43, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

BCS Women invites you to their Festival of Wikipedia for Ada Lovelace day

Hello everyone, thought you might be interested to see that BCS Women, a part of the Chartered Institute of IT, is hosting a Festival of Wikipedia as a part of this year's Ada Lovelace Day celebrations. There are sessions in Edinburgh, London and Southampton and they are being delivered in association with Wikimedia UK. You can find more details here. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:14, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

And here! Especially if you are available as a trainer. Daria Cybulska (WMUK) (talk) 11:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK spreads the word about GLAM showcase stories in Poland

Dear All,

We have been invited to participate in the openGLAM Conference 2013 - Open Cultural Resources. The main purpose of the conference is to present outstanding examples of implemented initiatives as well as to discuss the benefits - and challenges - of openness. I am able to attend and show Polish GLAMs how they can benefit from the partnerships with Wikimedia using examples from the UK. I'd love to get suggestions from you as for what would be the best examples to present. Wikimedia Poland has been particularly interested in the Wikimedian in Residence programme, but any other suggestions are welcome!

Many thanks - Daria Cybulska (WMUK) (talk) 11:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Migration of the UK Wiki on 27th September 2013

If I could direct your attention to this page on Wikimedia UK's site: WMUK wiki migration

It contains the details of the migration, the impact it will have on users of the UK wiki who have user accounts, and how the old wiki will be archived as a read only document. You will also see a site notice go live for the next two weeks reminding readers to do the following...

The most important things to do in the next two weeks are:

  • Enable email from other users
  • Download your watch list text before the migration (put in your diary for the day before)

Following the migration you will need to:

  • Check your email for your new password to a stub account on the migrated site
  • Reimport your watch list data
  • Update your bookmarks in your browser or phone
  • Log any emerging errors on our bugzilla - https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org.uk/

The above is only necessary if you currently have a registered user account.

If you don't have an account on the UK wiki but follow this list then, why not register? Logged in users can interact better with other members of the community around Wikimedia UK business by adding agendas and topic pages to their watch list and staying up to day with chapter business :-)

Any questions, fire away here, on my talk page, or email me katherine.bavageatwikimedia.org.uk. NB I am on annual leave 16th - 20th inclusive, so will ask other members of staff and User:Kelson to keep an eye out and respond in my absence! Katherine Bavage (WMUK) (talk) 13:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could do a quick note explaining how users can import watchlist data. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 15:05, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
This is in the linked to page at WMUK wiki migration. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 15:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

I have just switched over to the new site, and have to say that from my perspective the transfer was really smooth. Many thanks to all who worked hard to make that happen. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 05:21, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

What should our volunteer space look like?

In the London office we have always tried to make volunteers feel welcome with places to sit (or slump in the case of bean bags), wireless, coffee, bics etc but are we getting it right?

In October we are re-designing our space and hope to make some changes that might give us the chance to offer volunteers more of what they fancy?

At the moment we have:

  • Sitting area
  • Spares screens and keyboards
  • Spare laptops
  • Wifi of decent quality
  • A slide scanner
  • AN SLR camera with accessories
  • A DV camera with accessories
  • Digital recording equipment

Amongst other suggestions we have had are to establish s small reference library to help with editing.

What would you like to see? Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 13:38, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

On the topic of the reference library, I've started to bring in some of the books I own about the First World War so that they can be used as sources for any interested in doing some editing on this topic, particularly around the centenary. Do let me know if you're interested and I can provide a list. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
A list of equipment currently available for volunteer use can be seen at Volunteer equipment, while a list of books currently owned by the chapter can be seen at Library. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 14:47, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Beanbags are nice for lounging, but for those hoping to pop in and work with a laptop a couple of desks would be most useful. And some chairs to go with them. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 14:57, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
We'll have a couple more of those - maybe enough space for 12 or 14 desks (up from ten). In addition, we'll be paying per sq ft, not per desk, so this will be something we can do without spending too much more. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 15:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Registration for EduWiki Conference 2013 is now open

Hello everyone, just a quick note to let you know that registration for our 2013 EduWiki Conference is now open. The conference takes place on 1 & 2 November in Cardiff. You can find all of the details, including the registration information, here. We're looking forward to seeing you all there. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:53, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Signpost discussion

Note ongoing discussion between Stevie and myself, concerning the York Museums Trust Wikipedian in Residence job, at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Wikipedia_Signpost/2013-09-11/In_the_media Andreas JN 14:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

For those interested in the discussion, I've added a further response which I hope is helpful. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 13:12, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. Basically, the upshot of the conversation from my point of view is that
  1. it would make sense to co-ordinate publicity with partner institutions, so the public does not gain the impression that WMUK is funding institutions' self-promotion;
  2. if we have money to spend, we should focus less on broadening Wikipedia's coverage of niche subjects, and more on enhancing the quality of pages that both (a) attract high page views AND (b) cover topics that it is important for Wikipedia to get right (e.g. medical advice, including drugs advice and sex education, legal advice, "vital articles", etc.)
If we use donors' funds, we should prioritise projects in a way that ensures both that the largest possible number of readers profit, and that the improvements are as significant as possible from an educational point of view. I would like to see WMUK expand the Wikipedian-in-Residence concept beyond the GLAM area, paying subject matter experts in reputable educational organisations to monitor and contribute to important articles and topic areas in Wikipedia.
Further discussion welcome. Best, Andreas JN 12:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Vacant seats on the Board of Trustees

The following was recently emailed to the WMUK mailing list by Chris Keating, Chairman of the Trustees:

Just to keep you up to date about our co-options process! As you will probably know, we have a total of five vacant seats for the Board at the moment, and we are in the process of filling them.

There are the three "co-opted" seats which were created at the AGM in June. We are aiming to make some decisions on these in the next few weeks. For these we have already advertised and had some informal "getting to know you" conversations with prospective Trustees from a range of backgrounds, and we are just about to do some more formal interviews.

One way you can input into this process is to help us draft interview questions, please have a look here at what we are planning to ask, and add your thoughts.

There are also two vacant seats from those elected at the AGM, which will take a little longer to fill but we definitely wish to fill before the December Board meeting. We are particularly keen that these seats are filled by people with a strong knowledge of the Wikimedia community - if you are reading this and thinking "yes, being a Wikimedia UK trustee sounds really interesting", please do drop me or any trustee a line. You can find out more about this extremely rewarding role here, and about what we're looking for from our Board here. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 12:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Open House December 10th.

For your diaries:

We will be repeating last year's successful (NOT A CHRISTMAS PARTY) Open House for the community and friends at our offices on Tuesday December 10th from 4pm until 8ish

Refreshments will be provided but if you can bring a bottle or snack (we still remember Johnbod's smoked salmon last year) it would be appreciated! Come and enjoy a chance to chew over the past year and the exciting one to come.

Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 12:48, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Cornwall

I am in discussions with a Cornish museum about a possible tripod friendly event for photographers. Is anyone in or near Cornwall and willing to be the Wikimedia UK host for such an event? If so please drop me an email. Jonathan Cardy (WMUK) (talk) 14:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Wiki Loves monuments anomalies

I've been fixing some of the anomalies that have been coming in through Wiki Loves monuments in the UK, and I think it is fair to assume from the entries that are neither grade I nor grade II* that the community wants this scheme extended to scheduled Ancient Monuments, or at least Stonehenge, and also to Grade II listed buildings. Perhaps we can add both next year? We also seem to have some monuments coming in with a different coding system. British Listed Buildings uses English Heritage Building ID: 407791 this seems to equate to the UID field. Would it be possible to modify the bot so that it uses that field where the ID doesn't match the List entry Number? WereSpielChequers (talk) 15:47, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The problem with Grade II listings is that there are an awful lot of them -- imagine the work we have all put in maintaining lists, etc, x10, and you'd be close the overall amount of work (okay, if we did it again we'd be better at it, but you know what I mean). I agree that some expansion should occur, we just don't want to bite off more than we can chew.
Not sure what you mean by "Would it be possible to modify the bot so that it uses that field where the ID doesn't match the List entry Number?" The UID is used throughout for all English listed buildings (Scotland, Wales & NI maintain their own numbering systems. Jarry1250 (talk) 22:42, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
Here's one I fixed manually. Basically there are two coding systems, we use one but some of our images are coming in using the other codes. Jonathan Cardy (WMUK) (talk) 11:48, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I just followed the 'upload another image' link from the table in question and the correct list entry number was used. I'm not sure why that particular file had an incorrect one. I'll ask Richard Symonds if he knows what happened. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 12:16, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

First ever Northern Ireland meetup

This is close to being scheduled. Can anyone suggest a NI event around which to organise the meetup? In Belfast ideally. It could be as simple as an informal trip to a local museum in the morning (a Sunday) followed by a meetup in the pub from 1.00. Or a photo compettion of some kind. It needn't be a full editathon. Possibly Ulster Museum. The placeholder page is here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetup/Northern_Ireland/1 Philafrenzy (talk) 18:56, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I think that idea is spot on, except that (for me at least) a Saturday would be preferable. I could do a meetup on Saturday evening, followed by a museum trip on Sunday morning, or both parts on Saturday. I think it would be best to do everything on the same day. Sunday afternoon is no good for me because I would have to fly back to Liverpool, and then drive home. (Theoretically I could stay off the drink, but...)
So I suggest a visit to Ulster Museum at 10.30 on Saturday with a best-photo-uploaded-to-Commons competition thrown in for good measure, followed by a trip to the pub for a normal Wikimeet at 1pm. No obligation to do both parts. In terms of a pub, the Bot (anic Inn) is handy for the museum, and it might be OK for an early afternoon pint, but it's likely to get really busy and loud later on, so perhaps the Wetherspoons (Bridge House) might be the best place for the main meetup (free wifi, good value, and no music).
I think October is too soon, and December is too Christmasey, so that leaves November. The 16th is a no-go for me, so I reckon the 9th or 23rd would be best. What do you think? Bazonka (talk) 20:18, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
I have scheduled it for Saturday 23rd. A Saturday may not be to everyone's taste but we can always split it into a Saturday photo competition and a Sunday meetup if necessary. If it takes off it could even became a Belfast Wikimedia Weekend! Philafrenzy (talk) 13:56, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK now has the lowest membership total this quarter on record for more than two years

Fellow members may recall that I created the page Membership/numbers when I was a trustee as, even as a board member, these numbers seemed hard to get hold of and the decline was rationalized as database problems. You can see the trend in the table now showing the charity is at a record low. For the entire time I was a trustee I attempted to use membership as a key performance indicator and when we employed Jon Davies two years ago, agreeing and reporting KPIs, such as membership, was a top level commitment written into his terms of reference. As far as I am aware, verifiable and accountable KPIs are still to be agreed.

I see this the declining membership as an urgent issue, and I suspect there has been a matching failure to grow volunteer numbers in any significant way but no numbers get reported in any reliable fashion. The CEO has full responsibility and authority to fulfil the strategic plan to grow the volunteer base and ensure a solid membership for a volunteer centric charity. Despite generous funding from the WMF of more than £700,000 and a current staff complement of 9, this has failed to happen over the last two years. The most recent board minutes do not mention this as a problem or risk, neither did the public reports from the CEO or the fundraising report (which I assume covers membership).

I welcome other members to express a view as to the direction the charity is going with regard to openness and accountability, and whether the CEO should be accountable using these most simple and basic key performance indicators, and be questioned by the board of trustees on how he has improved them at each board meeting, rather than being assessed on apparently subjective and unmeasurable claims of success. --Fæ (talk) 19:01, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea why these numbers are so low, who should be accountable for it or what the "right" membership number is for an organisation of this type, however, I am absolutely sure that it is not 165 or 200 or anything like that. It looks wrong and feels wrong to have so few members with such a budget and so many staff. A higher membership would mean more voices, more volunteers, more brains and more potential trustees. In the 2013 strategy day there was a presentation showing 5750 monthly direct debits. That's 5750 people who are prepared to pay money to Wikimedia UK. I understand there is a problem collecting membership dues at the same time as donations but that's 5750 individuals who one would think are keen enough to pay £5 for membership. Has anyone emailed them and asked them to join? Should we consider abolishing/reducing the subs or making it a one off payment for life membership? Could the board please review this urgently and make increasing membership a strategic priority? Philafrenzy (talk) 21:30, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
You may find the discussion in May helpful, when I last explained the history and past expectations of the board (not the current board) for strategic membership growth—see Water_cooler/2013#How_can_the_Board_of_Trustees_measure_WMUK's_performance_as_an_organization? where the main response to this problem was "we're doing OK and we have better things to come", however since then when we were using a membership total of 272, we have suffered a drop of another 50 members. --Fæ (talk) 22:36, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not unusual for a charity to have more donations than members - people largely are happy handing over money, but actively avoid participation. Which is fine. Looking at the figures, that is a major drop - but IIRC we picked up a massive boost of members from the fundraiser we ran for the WMF, which we unfortunately were unable to do last year (because of Fæ and others). So I'm guessing natural wastage from that? --ErrantX (talk) 07:02, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

You are attempting to blame me for WMUK withdrawing from the fundraiser and the decline in memberships rather than your boss, the CEO, who is actually paid to do this stuff and has full operational authority and responsibility to deliver the strategy and been given every resource he ever asked for to do it? Irrelevant rubbish. The fact is that Chris Keating ran a vote of trustees to withdraw from the fundraiser a few hours after a closed meeting with the WMF CEO and WMF Legal, a meeting that Chris Keating denied me access to and failed to publish any record of. I was neither invited nor given access to vote (making it an invalid vote of the board per the articles of the charity). The decision and the reasons behind it given in emails from the WMF CEO had nothing to do with me, apart from the fact that I advised the board, multiple times, to take legal advice before making such decisions, which Chris Keating and Jon Davies ignored.
Membership is in rapid decline and the trend has been obvious and predictable for anyone that either examined the top level figures or was prepared to forecast based on dates of expiring memberships. There is no excuse for anyone to be surprised considering how I highlighted it at every board meeting whilst I was a trustee. --Fæ (talk) 08:07, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
There should be a zero on the end of those numbers with WMUK's budget, staff and profile. A higher membership would reduce the democratic deficit here and help to avoid the risk of groupthink by the board because they have heard too few dissenting voices. If only a handful of people contribute to each debate it is easy to dismiss dissenters as just the usual "awkward squad" and eventually those voices become a form of static that the board does not hear at all. Philafrenzy (talk) 09:27, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
+1 it seems routine to shoot the messenger and hide problems away with in-camera meetings, only speaking after carefully crafting a response analysis on the Office wiki, as if we were the Tory party, rather than frankly discuss a problem with members. Not the innovative and open charity we hoped to create back when Andrew was our Chairman. --Fæ (talk) 09:40, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

I'll observe here that there is one conversation to have about our membership, why our membership goes up and down, and what we can do about it (and indeed other governance issues). There is another conversation to have where Fae hurls bricks at me over my perceived failings as Chair over the last year and a bit. I am asking our staff to deal with the first conversation only, and I am also going to say as little as possible in response to the bricks that are being hurled at me: I think my record and Fae's can be allowed to speak for themselves. The Land (talk) 14:43, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Excellent idea. Certainly asking our staff to stop attempting to make it appear that I am somehow responsible for the current decline in membership or your decision to withdraw from the fundraiser, when the facts are easily demonstrable otherwise and on record with the charity, would be helpful. As for up and down, the steep drop over the period of Jon's tenure as our CEO in the official figures from 330 members to 220 members, is hard to brush off as either acceptable variance or database anomalies. Rather than focusing on me, I'm just an unpaid volunteer with no authority or responsibility, you may want to focus on the CEO's performance, a duty you bear on behalf of the members. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 15:47, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Fae, it's simply incorrect to state that membership is in rapid decline. There was a big drop around May/June of this year when the membership of many people that joined when Wikimedia UK last took part as a payment processor in the WMF annual fundraiser expired (12 months membership + 6 months grace). Since then, membership numbers have in fact been slowly increasing. Of course we would like the number to increase more quickly, and the board at its meeting this month agreed the volunteering strategy as a plan of action towards increasing the number of both volunteers and members. To point to just one outcome of the strategy, we have a newly designed member / volunteer recruitment leaflet that has just gone to print. This will help to inform potential volunteers and members of our activities and how they can get involved with the charity. The community does need to consider whether it's appropriate, or desirable, for the charity to offer benefits to members that are only available for members. Successive boards have decided that we as a charity does not wish to discriminate against non-members by offering any members-only benefit beyond voting rights and the ability to apply for project grants. If the community believes significantly increasing our membership is a priority for the charity, then having significant and identifiable members-only benefits will certainly help.
For reference, you also asserted that this issue was not covered in either the last board meeting or in the fundraising report. I'm not quite sure how you reach these inaccurate conclusions. It was in fact referred to as major risk 3 in the CEO's report on the risk register. It is also, very clearly, mentioned in the fundraising report. To quote:
“Membership planning – Numbers had plateaued prior to the donor newsletter which recruited some new sign up. The volunteering portal and recruitment leaflet will help when available from the end of September, and welcome emails will be updated to reflect this. The new database will mean we can have better sign up/renewals options online. The delegated approvals system has worked well, meaning members can receive confirmation of joining within 48 hours, maintaining momentum and hopefully improving engagement." Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 17:09, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. Though the Fundraising report mentions the topic of membership, it does not highlight this issue (or mention the numbers), such as the fact we are at the lowest membership this quarter for more than two years, as Mike Peel's graph on Membership/numbers now clearly shows (the graph makes it reasonable to conclude that membership is actually running at a three year low). Similarly the CEO's report does not mention this as an issue (issues are risks that have happened) and the CEO did not highlight this for the board to review in the meeting, the point of the CEO's "five top risks" section in the report (something that only happened after I repeatedly asked for it to be included) is that these are the risks that the trustees will consider in the board meeting. The detailed risk report is separate from the CEO's report. As for asking the community what it believes with regard to membership numbers, good idea, however this always was considered a key performance indicator for the CEO and after two years in the job, having membership significantly lower now that when he started is a problem that the board of trustees must take seriously due to the resulting "democratic deficit" as Philafrenzy mentions and the increased risk of entryism, especially considering how easy and cheap it is to set up fake memberships to manipulate a vote of members for anyone who fancies getting their pal on the board as a trustee or just to cause cost and disruption by legally forcing the board to call another EGM using a handful of votes.
What is needed here is a commitment to new action, rather than reiterating that "we are doing okay" and a rethink of the current organization which has failed to deliver measurable growth over the last two years against expectations (or any published strategy) despite having 9 staff and £700,000, with the same budget again requested in the 2014 pipeline.
For those that have not thought through the figures yet, during Jon's tenure the charity quadrupled its budget, went from 1 employee to 9 and yet there is no evidence that numbers of long term active volunteers has increased (in fact the only estimated numbers available appear to show this decreased) and numbers of members of the charity has dropped from 330 to 220 rather than growing. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

This thread really is extraordinary. Last year this charity received negative press coverage about not one but two of its recent chairmen - the two before the no current chair and both still trustees at the time that the news became public. One of these only resigns as chair after there are moves by the membership to call an EGM after the board fail to force the issue. The other's conflict of interest leads to the charity having to hire in external consultants to advise them on how to not let something like it happen again. It would have been surprising if a substantial proportion of the membership had not failed to renew. And yet, when the figures are revealed, one of those recent chairmen complains and objects to any suggestion than he might have had a teensy-weensy bit of influence on this drop.

The remaining members of the current committee do share some of the blame for not nipping things in the bud. The poor press coverage was entirely predictable. However loyalty is in its way admirable. Fae is right that Jon has a measure of blame for not meeting the charity's growth targets. A major point in paying £60K, or whatever it is, for an experienced charity executive is to have them point out to the inexperienced trustees when they are heading for trouble. Instead it appears that the trustee who saw the impending difficulties with Roger's COI was left feeling unsupported by Jon and ended up resigning. However, given that the way that Jon damaged the membership figures was by not pushing for Roger and Fae to go, it is absurd for Fae to be criticizing him for the loss of numbers.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:47, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

"Saddening" was the word I had in mind actually. Saddening that the point of this thread has been lost in all the vitriol and personality clashes. If everybody (and sorry Fae, but I'm talking to you in particular) put their opinions on individuals to one side, we could have an intelligent discussion on membership, its purpose, and how or whether we should be recruiting new members. If you all want to carry on blaming each other for this, that, and the other and making this a personal issue about Jon, Chris, Fae, or anybody else, please do so elsewhere (Wikipediocracy comes to mind—in-fighting like this serves nobody but our critics); if anybody wants to make an intelligent comment about membership without playing the blame game and without attacking anybody else, I suggest you do so below this thread. Harry Mitchell (talk) 11:44, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
If I may quote myself from above: "It looks wrong and feels wrong to have so few members with such a budget and so many staff. A higher membership would mean more voices, more volunteers, more brains and more potential trustees. In the 2013 strategy day there was a presentation showing 5750 monthly direct debits. That's 5750 people who are prepared to pay money to Wikimedia UK. I understand there is a problem collecting membership dues at the same time as donations but that's 5750 individuals who one would think are keen enough to pay £5 for membership. Has anyone emailed them and asked them to join? Should we consider abolishing/reducing the subs or making it a one off payment for life membership?" Philafrenzy (talk) 12:01, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
That's an interesting suggestion, thanks. Personally, I'd like to see a discussion about what the purpose of membership is and how we recruit members. I think the statistics above show that signing up members by asking them to tick a box when they donate during the fundraiser wasn't the best idea, in that it leads to an ostensibly large but uninvolved and apathetic membership which plummets 18 months later. Harry Mitchell (talk) 13:40, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Absolutely. There are two issues here. 1) Achieving a higher membership base 2) Communicating regularly in order to encourage participation to address the democratic deficit that may result in bad decisions being taken in good faith by the board because they are operating in a bubble of mutual agreement with too few opinions being heard. (I know they don't always agree, far from it). Philafrenzy (talk) 13:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Is there any legal requirement to charge anything for membership or at any particular frequency? Members don't actually get anything tangible for membership and many are also donors anyway so why charge anything? The costs of collecting the money may exceed the subs. Obviously, precautions would need to be taken to prevent entryism. It would be useful if someone from the Chapter with knowledge of the legal position could comment on these matters. Philafrenzy (talk) 14:28, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
There are charities that give membership as part of other things (paying for entry to an event for example), however we have always been wary of how the articles are currently worded. If you have 2,000 members instead of 200 then the articles would need to change as the percentage of the membership required to vote to make changes would probably have to adapt as membership grows as the percentage interested in voting will drop, or you need two classes of members (some other chapters realistically handle votes at general meetings this way). There is a second issue of the fact that members are not verified, which means that free or even cheaper membership might encourage larger numbers of people using fake names. According to Stone King, our membership charge at £5 was already remarkably low compared to equivalent organizations with similar issues. --Fæ (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2013 (UTC).
  • Info: <Postings removed here> This thread is for objective discussion of membership numbers only. Anyone using the thread to criticise or attack individuals can expect to be blocked. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 17:36, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
If free membership is too vulnerable to entryism, what about a £10 lifetime membership (or for a 5 or 10 year term)? This would avoid the annual admin chore of needing to renew which probably costs £5 per member in staff time to organise, and as many don't renew now there might not be a significant loss in revenue. Contact with members would then focus on news and involvement rather than collecting small sums of money. It would also avoid the mass cancellation of membership each year because people have forgotten to renew. Are we really sure those people aren't interested? Enthusiasm can wax and wane and people have many calls on their time. Do we keep in contact with the ones that don't renew? If not, I think we should. It costs little to send them a newsletter. CK would be the expert here in keeping in contact with people on a long term basis. Philafrenzy (talk) 20:52, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Possible editathon - Breast Cancer Awareness Month

Hello everyone. As you may know, October is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. I'm in discussion with a breast cancer charity at the moment about a training session / editathon in London towards the end of October. Please do let me know if you're interested in attending as a trainer or volunteer. I'll share further details as they emerge. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:28, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Hello again. Following some discussion, this event is definitely taking place. It's provisionally lined up for 22 October and I'd love to recruit a couple of volunteer trainers to help on the day. If anyone is interested please do let me know. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 12:52, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

WMUK programme for 2014-15

Our application to the FDC (the funding committee of the Wikimedia Foundation) for next year has now been submitted. Thanks to everyone who helped.

It is based on the board's agreed budget and contains quite a bit of detail. It is however not carved in stone. We will have a great deal of flexibility within our programmes and we will be asking the community where our emphasis should be as we plan the work for next year.

I hope you find it interesting.

Have a good weekend and make any comments or ask any questions here.

Jon.

Interwiki prefix from outside

What is the new interwiki prefix to reach this site from elsewhere? For example, on both English Wikipedia and Meta, it used to be possible to use [[wmuk:Events]] to reach the Events page here, but that no longer works - it still points to the old site. --Redrose64 (talk; at English Wikipedia) 20:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Let see if it's possible to get the WMF interwiki table updated to reflect the new address. -- KTC (talk) 20:49, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
I have requested an update at m:Talk:Interwiki_map#wmuk. -- KTC (talk) 21:06, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
Changes made at m:Interwiki map [1]. Actual update to the WMF database will happen whenever someone with access run the necessary script. -- KTC (talk) 21:31, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

Will the office be open during Wikimania?

It's a bit far off but does anyone know if the WMUK will be operating and open for visitors during Wikimania 2014? I noticed it was not far from the Barbican and it's possible that people may want to have a look. On the other hand, there's a good chance everyone from WMUK will be at Wikimania. If it will be open, I was thinking of adding it to Wikivoyage:Wikimania 2014 London Guidebook. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:21, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Hi Adam, that's a sensible question. Yes, the office will be open. Most staff will be at the conference but we will be making the office space open and available, too. And we like having visitors! Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 12:33, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Cool. I've added a listing under "Do". It's slightly off the edge of the embedded slippy-map but not too far (and visible on the big one). - AdamBMorgan (talk) 14:17, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
That's great Adam, thank you for doing that. Much appreciated. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Migration bugs: Scripts, styles and NavPopups on this new wiki

I've just copied my en.wp user CSS and user JS over to here (CSS, JS), but they're not being imported in the header.

Also, I enabled the Gadget Navigation popups and hovering over things gives me the popup menu, but without the styling (so a transparent div with an unordered list of links) and without the onmouseout event (so it never goes away).

I'm guessing these are just teething things; is there somewhere better I should be posting this kind of problem or should I just put them here? — OwenBlacker (Talk) 16:18, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

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