Engine room

Welcome to the engine roomThis is a place to ask about and discuss the inner workings of the charity. To discuss our external projects and activities, see how you can get involved or suggest ideas that could help our charitable mission, head over to the water cooler.

2013 2014

Where can I find 2014 programmes as opposed to just budget?

I was wondering where last year's ideas for activities around this year's centenary of the First World War had gone, or what outcomes there had been in this area even if it had been reduced, considering there was originally £20,000 agreed by the trustees to be spent on it. Checking 2014 Activity Plan/GLAM Outreach I was surprised that this document contains no details of any GLAM projects, in fact it only appears to link to a budget for 2013 and the section on "timelines" remains blank apart from the note please add details.

Where can I find a tangible 2014 plan for GLAM, with details that can be measured as opposed to reports of stuff that has already happened? --Fæ (talk) 11:07, 9 May 2014 (BST)

Based on the fact that it has now been a week, this appears to be a "non-success".

I suggest that the board of trustees consider changing the Activity Plan wording so that there is a realistic expectation given to members that when we discuss plans, the charity means standard budget forecasts, reports of what happened in the previous quarter and actions (not plans) for the coming quarter.

These would normally be called "reports" and in addition one would expect the CEO to ensure a schedule spanning the funded programmes is maintained (the next 12 months in the case of this charity) and a work breakdown with associated measurable outcomes. The board of trustees may find this a useful strategic discussion at some point soon, in order to help provide the quality of oversight that most large national charities would expect. --Fæ (talk) 12:21, 15 May 2014 (BST)

While it has been almost a week since your question, our GLAM Organiser is part-time. A considerable amount of his time has been spent on helping with FDC reporting for Q1 so you may have to wait for an answer. When he is next in I will ask Jonathan Cardy when he has time to answer. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 14:49, 15 May 2014 (BST)

I was expecting either a link to the plan so I could look at it, or a statement saying there is no plan. My question was not intended to be directed at anyone, I certainly am not asking employees direct questions. This could be answered by the CEO, any trustee as they follow and review these documents, or another unpaid volunteer up to date on programme reporting, who might be comfortable answering.

As it happens I have been in discussion with Jonathan on other matters in this time. I note that the Activity Plan does not name Jonathan as being responsible for a plan, and that the supporting detailed document says "Daria Cybulska with delegated support from Jonathan Cardy" which I was aware of, but had made no assumptions about. --Fæ (talk) 15:09, 15 May 2014 (BST)

Likewise Daria and the CEO have been extraordinarily busy in particular with drafting the FDC report. I'm afraid an answer will have to wait until staff workloads are more manageable. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 16:10, 15 May 2014 (BST)

Thanks. I am sorry that the last week had been a bad time. Again, it was never my intention for this to be seen a question directed to an employee.

@MichaelMaggs: Would a trustee or a knowledgeable volunteer like to answer my question? It seems a simple and short one if anyone knows the answer. Thanks --Fæ (talk) 16:57, 15 May 2014 (BST)

It has now over 2 weeks 6 weeks since my question "Where can I find a tangible 2014 plan" was raised. I am sorry if this has been seen as a trick question of some sort, it was not intended that way. --Fæ (talk) 10:36, 25 June 2014 (BST)

Digital design work required

Hello everyone. Wikimedia UK has today uploaded a call for quotes to provide two pieces of digital design - a small website and some email templates. Quotes are welcome from all parties and should be provided by the end of 13 June 2014. You can see the brief here. For more information please email stevie.bentonwikimedia.org.uk. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 17:24, 6 June 2014 (BST)

I am not entirely convinced by the need for the extra website, if it reflects our way of working and values etc I suspect it could look much like the existing one but I think that discussion has been had. As for the professionally designed newsletters - at last! Not everything needs to be done in house just because people are willing to take it on. I hope this will pay for itself 10 times over in increased donations and volunteering. Philafrenzy (talk) 18:29, 6 June 2014 (BST)

Good point Philafrenzy. Was there a discussion with the community about creating a (presumably entirely employee controlled website) to serve as a front for the UK charity, thereby replacing this wiki for that function, which has always been open to active volunteer control and participation?

I recall a past discussion which can be found in the archives, where the majority of volunteers rejected this approach. --Fæ (talk) 17:48, 8 June 2014 (BST)

The board considers that this approach is required to increase our reach and hence our charitable impact, particularly within the huge pool of potential new volunteers and supporters who are aligned with our aims but who are not already committed Wikimedians. This will be of particular importance in the coming months as the charity's website starts to receive increased visibility due to Wikimania. The charity wishes to avoid focusing exclusively on the relatively small Wikimedia activist communities and to reach out more widely to all who support our aims. The board is aware of your opposition and of the previous discussions on this topic. Nevertheless, we think it the right thing to do, for the reasons which are very well set out in the brief. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 18:42, 8 June 2014 (BST)

To be clear, I mentioned previous community discussion, not my viewpoint. Please do not marginalize community discussion as "your opposition", thanks.

Thank you for confirming that there has been no subsequent discussion with the community since this was last discussed, instead this is purely an initiative of the board. --Fæ (talk) 18:48, 8 June 2014 (BST)

Thanks for the reply. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:36, 8 June 2014 (BST)

I hope my previously expressed concerns about this have also been taken into account. Having a separate website that isn't a wiki and excludes volunteers from being able to contribute it, without a clear technical reason for why that can't be the case, still seems like an incredibly bad idea to me. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 20:08, 8 June 2014 (BST)

Yes Mike, all expressed concerns have been taken into account. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 20:13, 8 June 2014 (BST)

What is the nature of this taking account? Is there a list somewhere of the expressed concerns and and what was concluded about each? e.g. "concern can be mitigated by..." or "This is highly unlikely to actually happen." or "This is an issue that we need to manage. If managed well, the negative effect will be more than outweighed by the positive effects of the website."

Yaris678 (talk) 15:50, 9 June 2014 (BST)

I don't think anyone has done anything quite that procedural, no. When this was discussed on wiki some were in favour and some some were against. The board has concluded that on balance it is the right thing to do, primarily for the reasons listed above. The approach is a common one and has already been adopted by quite a few chapters, including WMSE, WMCH, WMDE, WMNL and WMFR. We understand and respect the fact that some in the UK community have strongly-held differing views. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 16:33, 9 June 2014 (BST)

Hello Yaris, there's a few points worth noting here that I hope will help. The wiki is not going anywhere and will remain the primary resource. For those who wish to go straight to the wiki, there will be a simple option on their first visit to add a cookie which will take them to the wiki at every subsequent visit. This is a requirement of the brief. Each page of the website will directly link to the wiki, especially the volunteer, GLAM and education areas. The website will include portals for GLAM, education and volunteering as well as a home page and an about page. These pages will build on existing, community-driven content. This is not an abandonment of our values. Several other significant chapters, including many listed in the brief itself, have websites as well as wikis - this is very much bringing us in-line with the work of other chapters. It is not something new or something that is a departure from the work elsewhere in the movement. It is also a chance to make sure that stuff that is really important for those new to WIkimedia UK, and aren't Wikimedians, is highly accessible. Our wiki, like pretty much any Media Wiki installation I can think of, is not very accessible. We haven't really made any progress with this and it is extremely important that we do so, one way or another. I also want to clarify that existing Wikimedians are not the key audience for this. We want to have a space for newcomers, too. I'm confident this will help us actually grow our volunteer community. I hope this helps, and I'm happy to answer direct questions on my talk page if you would like me to, although here is obviously fine as well. Thank you. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2014 (BST)

I'm not massively against having a website, especially if done in the way described. I am just wary of statements like "all expressed concerns have been taken into account." Or was that some kind of in-joke between Michael and Mike?

I've had a look at WMDE and WMSE. WMDE seem to be using MediaWiki in a similar way to our current system. WMSE has a nice-looking non-MediaWiki website, but it doesn't look that different from WikiVoyage. I suppose the main difference is that it doesn't have the tabs at the top and the menu down the side. Is the aim to hide these to newcomers and present them only with things that they can "get" easily, so that we don't overwhelm them?

Yaris678 (talk) 08:15, 16 June 2014 (BST)

I quite like Wikimedia Sweden's site, and also WMCH's. Though I think they should have a clearer link to the Chapter's Wiki. But, I think a Chapter's site is essential to how it's viewed by external organisations and people. Something that is more evocative of our identity, location and work is important to this audience. Additionally, though Wikipedia is the flagship project, Wikimedia isn't just about MediaWiki, and will be increasingly less so as Wikidata grows.

I think it would be interesting to hear from WMDE on what they think about this. A different site is something they might have considered or might be considering, so it would be interesting to hear their views on this.--Stuart Prior (WMUK) (talk) 14:36, 16 June 2014 (BST)

Yes, opinions from other selected chapters would be useful input, and something to be carefully taken into account before making changes rather than afterwards. It remains unclear as to why the process for deciding on this change is no longer a suitable one to be that could ever be reached by consensus with volunteers. Past discussion was not encouraging, nor was general opinion from volunteers on Wikimediauk-l. Value 3 "Community" of Vision, values and mission suggests that our decision making processes should always be designed to put the volunteer at the centre of driving fundamental changes. When opinion is divided, I would expect reasonable consensus with volunteers to become more important to achieve, rather than a situation where the Chief Executive and the board of trustees are not successfully bringing significant proportions of volunteer opinions along with their plans.

As has been highlighted above, "all expressed concerns have been taken into account" appears dismissive and intended to firmly close down any potential discussion, rather than remaining cooperative and consultative in line with our values put in place to underpin the way the charity operates. --Fæ (talk) 15:35, 16 June 2014 (BST)

I'm not sure that changing the website qualifies as a "fundamental" change as the mission and values of the charity remain the same. Also it would be in line with what many other chapters in our peer group (so to speak) have done, so hardly without precedent.

The aim as I see it is to present a non-Wikipedian friendly image to the public, and I think would neatly fulfil Value 2 "Accessibility and Quality" and encourage Value 5 "Diversity" by widening the appeal and accessibility of the charity.

I'm sure there's a compromise that will appeal to both the public and the existing community that will encourage that community to grow. Best --Stuart Prior (WMUK) (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2014 (BST)

Quite possibly there is a comfortable compromise, it would be nice to get to that position. As far as I know, there has been no non-subjective attempt to assess the opinions and issues of a significant number of users of this website, who do not identify as "existing community". It would be a useful input to help reach a community consensus. Unpaid active volunteers include members and non-members that rarely read or may never have edited on this site, for example readers of wikimediauk-l who have never created an account on this wiki, yet may be interested in the communications and strategy of the UK chapter. --Fæ (talk) 17:59, 17 June 2014 (BST)

I'm somewhat worried that my emails to wikimediauk-l haven't been directly responded to. In particular, I was asking whether this is being done purely for aesthetic reasons (in which case it could still be done on-wiki), or if this is actually incorporating features that mediawiki can't support? Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 15:43, 16 June 2014 (BST)

Just spotted this Mike - the simple answer would be that we want to do things that mediawiki won't allow. We tried very hard and you will see from the edit history that one leading wikimedian spent five days doing his best to make the site work. It was a real improvement but in terms of the functionality we want and the accessibility we need something better. We have held back from this longer than many chapters but the time has come to make our 'shop window' work better for the people we want to attract. As Stevie says the majority of the pages 2k+? will be just the same (although some volunteer spring cleaners would be much appreciated - we have far too many dead, incomplete or never really started pages), and of course there will be an 'opt around' possibility to go straight to the wiki website. Ultimate aim though is to make it look a whole lot better. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 09:17, 20 June 2014 (BST)

Hi Jon. Thanks for the reply, but I'm afraid it doesn't answer my questions. What functionality, specifically, are you thinking about here? As I said, if it's just design work rather than interactive features, then I'm sure it can be implemented on-wiki rather than requiring an off-wiki website. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:12, 23 June 2014 (BST)

I am not an expert but those that are were drew a blank with some of the things we want to do which is one of the reasons we are doing this. A couple I am aware of is creating a rolling picture carousel of random chosen images from a source of pics (in this case the collection of visitors to the office) and another is an easy way to embed videos. Have a look at the Swiss and Swedish sites and see what they have been able to do. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 08:26, 24 June 2014 (BST)

Those are interesting requirements, the first I've seen these written down. If there were requests asking about these requirements, perhaps someone could provide a link?

We can already embed videos neatly on a wiki page. Perhaps the requirement is to play it on first view? This should be achievable by a local tweak to the wiki introducing a parameter to allow it.

It should be possible to allow an open-source javascript plug-in to do a carousel, possibly by extending the gallery tag. There are pages on-wiki that show a different image every time you view them from a pre-selected album, and a couple of years ago I had a feature like this on my user page, relying on simple templates. Now we have lua available, it should be possible to do something more sophisticated, perhaps to the extent of a full carousel.

It would be worth asking volunteers to put together demonstrations of what can be done for free, or highlighting existing interesting on-wiki solutions, before doing similar stuff through commercial contracts, especially if there is no particular time-table for delivering these features. --Fæ (talk) 10:03, 24 June 2014 (BST)

Our timetable at the moment is heavily dictated by the desire to have our website improved in time for Wikimania. We have approached the community, as I am sure people will remember, several times:

Request for help re: water cooler - https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Engine_room/2014#The_Water_cooler_needs_to_look_prettier

Request for help re: engine room - https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Engine_room/2014#The_Engine_room_needs_to_look_prettier

Where we suggested a website last year - https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Water_cooler/2013#I_think_Wikimedia_UK_needs_a_website

Where we suggested adding buttons to make it easy to share content - https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Water_cooler/2013#Facebook.2C_Twitter_and_Linked-In_buttons)

Good progress was made but like other chapters we came to the conclusion that the workarounds were very complicated, time intensive and would not allow the ease of editing that a modern website will allow. Wikis are really challenging for accessibility and do not offer the simple features and flexibility that a modern website offers.

The decision has now been made and we are working hard to get something in place before Wikimania that will show the chapter in the best light. The main pages will of course all remain and use MediaWiki so any suggestions for improving the 2,000 or so pages there would be appreciated. For instance we created a carousel that changes the image in each page load but we could not work out one that changes every few seconds which would be what we want. It defeated one of our best volunteer editors. I will hold my thoughts for now until we have something in place. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 11:08, 25 June 2014 (BST)

Login errors - clarifying text needed

Can we get some text added to the log-in page, telling people that their Wikipedia/ sister project login will not work here, and that a new account is required (but can use the same user name)? Twice recently, people have contacted me, asking why they can't log on, as a result of that issue. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:45, 14 June 2014 (BST)

+1 I've had similar contacts from experienced editors who automatically presume SUL will work. --Fæ (talk) 13:28, 14 June 2014 (BST)

I will ask Richard Nevell (WMUK) to look into this. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 11:45, 19 June 2014 (BST)

Having looked into it, I couldn't work out how to change it myself so have filed a bug for our tech contractors to look at. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 16:17, 19 June 2014 (BST)

┌─────────┘
The Facebook-style log in page isn't customisable, but our developers have managed a work around by linking to a short explanation through "Help with logging in". Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 12:49, 25 June 2014 (BST)

Latest draft of annual review for comments

Hello everyone. I've been working on our 2013-14 annual review booklet which we will be giving to visitors to Wikimania. It still needs some images but it is taking shape now. If you like to take a look, it's here. All sensible and constructive comments welcome. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 10:15, 27 June 2014 (BST)

Stevie - It looks really good. love the front cover! Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 10:35, 27 June 2014 (BST)

On page 7 and on page 20 (twice) the word "licences" as a noun is incorrectly spelled the American way: "licenses". I expect you're aware of the placeholder link that will need replacing on page 9, the caption on page 14 and the pull quote on page 17. On page 18 Jimmy Wales is listed as "pictured" when he is not (unless he is one of the Globe Kittens...). The standard WMF trademark disclaimer still needs to be added to the back page, as the roundel above uses WMF trademarks. Hope that helps. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:53, 27 June 2014 (BST)

On the back page, we still have "The image on the front cover shows the .... Salisbury Cathedral". The missing words are probably 'nave of'. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:11, 27 June 2014 (BST)

The back cover family logo images need to be updated to include Wikidata & Wikivoyage. -- Katie Chan (WMUK) (talk) 11:14, 27 June 2014 (BST)

Thanks for all comments so far, much appreciated. These will certainly be dealt with at the proofing stage and I will definitely refer back here - most helpful! Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 11:16, 27 June 2014 (BST)

Hello again, I now have an updated version with the images included. I do still need to make the changes suggested above, and add the statistics page, but it's almost there. Would love useful and constructive comments. Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 17:46, 30 June 2014 (BST)

Latest version

Hello again. I've just uploaded the latest version of the annual review. It's here. Please do feel free to comment by the end of Wednesday. There are some required amends I have noted: P4 - need to rewrite the end of column 1. P7 - remove stray (see below) and correct spelling of licences. P9 - remove one of "created developed". Correct "also a focused on". P11 - correct "you can see a selection". P13 - fix stray capitalisation. P14 - fix stray capitalisation. P16 - fix stray capitalisation and duplication of "project" in para 3. P17 - fix stray caps and image caption. P18 - fix stray full stop in col 3. P20 - fix two spellings of licences and add standard WMF disclaimer. Thank you Stevie Benton (WMUK) (talk) 15:33, 8 July 2014 (BST)

Matters reserved for the Board

As recommended by our governance reviewers, we have today published a list of Matters reserved for the Board. This is an explanatory and informational document which is intended to be read in conjunction with the Scheme of Delegation, the formal document of April 2013 which continues to define the responsibilities that have been placed on the Chief Executive by the board. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 10:13, 3 July 2014 (BST)

Moving pages on this wiki

I noticed the page-move vandalism on this wiki earlier today and an increase in vandalism in general since the migration of this wiki away from the WMF wiki family (which was done for reasons I still don't fully understand, and I'm extremely sceptical as to whether it was worth the increased hassle), but since page moves don't need to be done that frequently and are rarely urgent, should the function be restricted to administrators?

I would also suggest to the board that, since we no longer have the benefit of assistance from the small wiki monitoring team and stewards (some of whom are often awake while most of the UK is asleep), it takes a more liberal approach to the granting of admin rights on this wiki (and that some effort is put into recruiting volunteers to look after the wiki). Harry Mitchell (talk) 00:18, 7 July 2014 (BST)

This makes a lot of sense to me - although it would be better to restrict page moves to [auto]confirmed users instead of just admins. I've echo'd the suggestion on the technology mailing list, since RecentChanges is rather busy at the moment: [1]. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:38, 7 July 2014 (BST)

According to Special:ListGroupRights the page move function is now restricted to administrators. I don't have any great objections to this, as pages don't need to be moved that often, though I don't think it was even restricted to autoconfirmed users before, so as Mike says, trying this first might be better.

I also agree with taking a more liberal approach on giving out the admin tools, and I would be happy to see it given to any member of the chapter in good standing, since staff probably have better things to be doing than dealing with vandalism and spam. I'll put my hand up as someone interested – I regularly check recent changes, sometimes at odd hours of the day. I've got the tools already on the Wikimania 2014 wiki to help keep spam and vandalism at bay and I'm happy to offer my services here too. CT Cooper · talk 18:45, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Thanks for volunteering. You are now an admin! --MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2014 (BST)

ps If any other trusted members would like to help out, please see Permissions Policy.--MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Thank you. CT Cooper · talk 20:15, 7 July 2014 (BST)

"Move pages (move)" is also listed as a right that 'users' have... Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 18:47, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Indeed it is. My mistake. CT Cooper · talk 20:15, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Yup - it is still a right of the "users" group. It ought to be editable in LocalSettings.php, according to the Mediawiki manual, but I can't see that page (no doubt for good reason!).

AbuseFilter looks helpful but is a little too technical for me to be able to us it. The Land (talk) 19:49, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Same with me. I can do range blocks if needed, but I've never gotten to grips with the abuse filter. CT Cooper · talk 20:15, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Emmanuel has reported that the abuse filter extension has been installed. Jon Davies has asked for page moves be restricted to admins, in the meanwhile the high profile pages on this wiki have been fully move protected individually.

There are no "confirmed" or "auto confirmed" user groups on this wiki so there is no permission level between user and administrator. Personally therefore I think restricting moves to admins makes sense in that context. The priv can be extended to a trusted user group if desired at a later date if one is created (a separate discussion I feel). Chris McKenna (WMUK) (talk) 18:53, 7 July 2014 (BST)

Yeah, in the longterm a user group with the ability to move page, the autopatrol flag and anything else useful would be nice. CT Cooper · talk 21:06, 7 July 2014 (BST)

I've just made an editfilter to tag edits from new users who dramatically reduce a pagesize or blank it. Sadly the filter won't save, so I've filed a bug (282). Once we get the editfilter working, we can have precisely defined checks on vandalism by adapting what's available already on en-wp or by writing our own. --RexxS (talk) 21:23, 7 July 2014 (BST)

It looks like unregistered users can create pages on this wiki too. It might be helpful if this was restricted to registered accounts, though I do recognize that much of the recent spam/vandalism has come from registered users anyway. CT Cooper · talk 20:55, 8 July 2014 (BST)

Naming of pages in dated series

As can be seen from Category:Meeting agendas, we used to name pages logically, like Meetings/2009-03-02/Agenda. This meant that they sorted chronologically, and could be easily found using the wiki search feature's autocomplete (someone could, for example, type "Meetings/2009-03" without needing to know the exact date was the 2nd).

More recently, formats like Agenda 29Jun10 have been used; this is far less useful.

I'd like us to resume using the former pattern, and to move the existing pages with the latter type of name, if there is no objection. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 12:33, 8 July 2014 (BST)

Full support from me for that. Chris McKenna (WMUK) (talk) 12:40, 8 July 2014 (BST)

Sounds sensible to me, I've wondered why that format is used too. Perhaps there was a reason for the shift? Sjgknight (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2014 (BST)

The newer form is more human-readable, in my view.... The Land (talk) 13:24, 8 July 2014 (BST)

It's also easier to link to... Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 13:29, 8 July 2014 (BST)

How so? And even if it is, that can be dealt with by redirects. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:55, 8 July 2014 (BST)

I don't find "29Jun10" particularly human readable. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 13:55, 8 July 2014 (BST)

I'm with Andy on this - "29Jun10" is less readable to me than "2010-06-29" and redirects (which are generally underused on this wiki) are the perfect solution to linking issues. Chris McKenna (WMUK) (talk) 14:37, 8 July 2014 (BST)

I also prefer ISO 8601 dating, it's more logical for use of sub-pages and is easily readable, though I know not everyone is used to it. CT Cooper · talk 20:58, 8 July 2014 (BST)

The common use in the UK is to refer to dates as Day / Month / Year, at least when they are intended to be read by the general public. ISO 8601 is a wonderful thing for databases but is rather less familiar to people who aren't used to them. So I think the current version is significantly more usable. The Land (talk) 19:59, 10 July 2014 (BST)

If readability for the general public is the primary concern then I see no reason why the date can't written in full i.e. "29 June 2010". CT Cooper · talk 21:27, 10 July 2014 (BST)

I think the point re: changing is readability is moot if you can't find the page, the 2009-03 format makes it easier to get an overview of (and find individual) meetings from 2009, and isn't that odd to read. Sjgknight (talk) 21:34, 10 July 2014 (BST)

I've always preferred the YYYY-MM-DD format for use in page titles as it allows Ajax to suggest autocompletions and aids manual searching - even more so if you're looking at a category with lots of pages. As an example, when I created the page for the first meeting of the Audit & Risk Committee, I named it Audit and Risk Committee/Meeting 2013-04-29. Since then, a different scheme has been used, so that perusing Category:Audit and Risk Committee gives the September 2014 meeting before the May and January ones. Using 2014-01-14; 2014-05-21; 2014-09-01 would arrange them in chronological order and ensure that 2013 comes before 2014, before 2015, etc. It's not a big deal when there's only a few pages, but soon gets annoying when the category becomes larger. --RexxS (talk) 22:09, 10 July 2014 (BST)

I also personally prefer the 2014-05-21 naming convention. --MichaelMaggs (talk) 23:07, 10 July 2014 (BST)

To be clear my position on this is that ISO 8601 (YYYY-MM-DD) is best, with the longhand dates (e.g. 29 June 2010) being either used in re-directs or as an alternative if ISO 8601 isn't wanted. The current format of "29Jun10" seems to be the worst of both worlds. CT Cooper · talk 23:18, 10 July 2014 (BST)

It looks like we should use ISO 8601, possibly with redirects from "normal" dates.. I'll ping Richard Nevell (WMUK) and if he agrees (he organises this sort of thing) we'll go with that. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 11:06, 11 July 2014 (BST)

I don't mind especially either way. Each style has its merits and drawbacks. Whatever is decided, consistency would be preferable so some pages will need moving. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 13:19, 11 July 2014 (BST)

ISO 8601 with redirects it is. Richard Symonds (WMUK) (talk) 14:39, 11 July 2014 (BST)

@Jonathan Cardy (WMUK): sorry Jonathan, idly looking at recent changes and moved what I thought was a mistaken ISO 8601 without dashes, I now see that is the historic format for the GLAM committee (apologies, obviously feel free to revert me!) - just to note here that clearly there are really a number of different formats being used...will changing require a manual edit to all? Sjgknight (talk) 16:46, 23 July 2014 (BST)

Is there a volunteer willing to do all the redirects. I don't really want to see staff time wasted on this bicycle shed kinda stuff? Seddon (talk) 16:45, 23 July 2014 (BST)

Train the trainers - how can we make it perfect?

First of all many thanks to those of you who gave up your Saturday for the Train the Trainers refresher session recently. I am awaiting the feedback analysis from Midas and will share it but the comments we have had so far was really positive. As the programme develops it is clear that we need to make sure that you are all supported and that the experience for those you train is as good as possible.

So to the point. While most of the trainee feedback has been positive there have been a few event attendees who have felt that we could have done better:

   'The woman sitting next to me did not know how to sign her name by the end of the session'
   'Why were there no proper handouts, no outcomes, no checking whether or not people were following'
   'I felt there should have been a lesson plan for the sessions that could have been adapted'
   'He questioned the point of belonging to WMUK' from someone who wanted to join :(

These could just be small isolated instances but I thought it important to listen to your thoughts. Daria, Katie and I have discussed this, and think it would be useful to know if there are things we can do to support you and whether there are resources that are being neglected or need to be created.

I have set up a discussion page.

Jon.

Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 13:08, 15 July 2014 (BST)

I don't know what to make of this.

Firstly, presumably, the feedback copied above is feedback at sessions that trained trainers have run, not feedback on the refresher. This isn't made entirely clear.

Secondly, if it is feedback on sessions run by trained trainers, I don't really know what we can do with this information, without knowing which specific sessions each point relates to. I guess it serves as a useful reminder of what can go wrong.... but that's about it.

Presumably, following the analysis by Midas, individuals will be contacted to discuss feedback specific to the sessions they were involved in. That will be much more useful.

Yaris678 (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2014 (BST)

Yes theses were from sessions where we had trainers present. A very small sample of what are generally pleased people but pose some useful questions and I hope you will share your ideas on the discussion page - some good stuff there already. Jon Davies (WMUK) (talk) 14:51, 15 July 2014 (BST)

The first question these quotes pose to me is "which session do they come from?" But I think we have clarified the situation now. What you are actually after is answers to the questions on the linked page. I think the questions there provide sufficient prompt. Yaris678 (talk) 06:34, 16 July 2014 (BST)