Talk:Call for EGM 2012: Difference between revisions

Obviously, what will happen during such a meeting is that the ArbCom decision itself will be discussed and then you get a polarized discussion between two camps where one side will say that you have to just accept that decision as correct even if it isn't, while others will say that ArbCom caused the problem by banning Fae when normally people are only banned when their behavior is such that they really cannot contribute to Wikipedia by any reasonable measure. Count Iblis (talk) 02:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm hoping that Fae will do the right thing and resign from the board. The board can then issue a statement thanking him for his service and hoping he will continue to be involved. By not resigning as chair immediately after the ArbCom decision was announced I am afraid that Fae made an error which can now only be corrected by his resignation from the board altogether. It doesn't matter if we think arbcom was wrong - we weren't elected to arbcom, our opinions are irrelevant. Filceolaire (talk) 07:57, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

If Arbcom erred, and I'm not the only one who thinks they did, then yes it does matter that in recognising that he was harassed but banning him anyway they got this wrong. As for the idea that simply resigning as chair would have defused things and let him continue as a trustee, sadly I don't think that would work. He withdrew from the topic of gay pornstars because his editing there was contentious, but that didn't stop his critics. He quit as admin despite no-one criticising his admin actions, but that didn't stop what had by then become harassment. If he were to quit as chair of WMUK despite no-one criticising his actions as chair do you seriously think he would have been left in peace to continue serving as a trustee? If he ceases to be a trustee what confidence can we have that he could continue his GLAM work without harassment starting against him being active in that? At some point he is entitled to stop retreating. WereSpielChequers (talk) 08:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I argee that ArbCom erred, but not in the way you suggest. Being the victim of harassment does not make one infallible... why would the fact that he was harassed automatically make the ban a wrong decision? They erred because they sentenced him based on vague and unsubstantiated claims, rather than on what there was actually evidence for. There is very clear evidence that Fae did some things wrong, but nothing ban-worthy. --Tango (talk) 11:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Extended content

There wasn't any harassment. Sharing and discussing facts and opinions isn't harassment. Judging from posts in the mailing lists, Wikimedia UK doesn't even like it when the news shares facts. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 12:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Really? So why do you think arbcom banned you from the English Wikipedia? Creating a critical page about a gay man on a website that tolerates homphobia is harassment. You personally didn't add the "faggot" bits to that page, but as an admin on that site you should have known that was acceptable there. WereSpielChequers (talk) 12:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Freedom of sheep means allowing people to say things that you or I dislike, and simply saying despicable things isn't harassment. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 13:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Dramatica article doesn't say that homosexuality is wrong. It doesn't threaten or encourage violence against Fæ or any homosexual person. It doesn't include Fæ's home address. It doesn't commend readers to send Fæ hate mail. The ED article isn't harassment. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 14:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Michael are we talking about the same website that Fox News linked to? Because that Encyclopaedia Dramatica page was categorised under "Faggotry" and had a "Homosexual Deviants" template on it, and that wasn't just vandalism that was there for a few minutes. If Fox were operating in accordance with British journalistic ethics I'd be tempted to query why they'd reference a clearly homophobic and I'd add racist site (according to a template in the Fae article an article with the n word in its title was the preceding featured article on their main page). A site that allows that sort of content is homophobic, and I suspect that was part of why Arbcom banned you for creating that page there. As for whether "simply saying despicable things isn't harassment" well saying things isn't the same thing as writing them and publishing them on the Internet. And arguably one can say a despicable thing without doing it persistently enough to be harassment, but how many weeks has that page been up for? Freedom of speech has its consequences and has to fit in with other freedoms, including freedom of association. So if one person asserts their right to say despicable things, others are free to shun them and choose other people to associate with. Wikipedia is a website where a group of people are collaborating to write an encyclopaedia. It really isn't an appropriate place for people who want to say despicable things about others, and that includes fellow editors. WereSpielChequers (talk) 21:47, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

There isn't any real racism or real homophobia on ED; that sort of material is just for show (shock value). You shouldn't take the mock racism and the mock homophobia on ED too seriously. See also: https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Encyclopedia_Dramatica#Is_ED_racist.2Fhomophobic.3F. --Michaeldsuarez (talk) 02:19, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

WSC nails it. This is sounding uncomfortably like Whitehall politics. There's no dispute that Fae is the right person for the role: informed, absolutely dedicated to our values, great with partner organisations, with the right background and track record that WMUK needs. I haven't seen a complaint against his ability to do what WMUK requires him to do, except the question over him training newcomers, which seems to require an oddly legalistic interpretation of "editing on behalf of a banned user". It makes total sense that the board would give him unanimous backing. But some members think we need to debate our confidence in him because of... what? Because of headlines? Because of how his situation can be spun? This is something I associate with party politics or corporate PR: I hope, perhaps naively, that Wikimedia UK is something different and meritocratic. I wish the people who think it obvious that Fae should stand down would recognise that it isn't obvious, and spell out what the action is be supposed to achieve. (e/c) Specifically I agree that stepping down won't stop the harassment. MartinPoulter (talk) 11:22, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Public perception is something that has very real impact. PR is PR, whether you are in politics, the for-profit sector or the non-profit sector. Whoever you are, it matters what people think of your organisation, regardless of whether they are right to think it. Just to be clear, the goal of the EGM isn't the stop the harassment of Fae. It is to discuss the situation with respect to Wikimedia UK. Wikimedia UK should support any member of the UK community who is facing harassment, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't also consider its own interests and the interests of the wider movement. --Tango (talk) 11:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Martin; he's got issues understanding copyright (pertinent to GLAM work), launches vicious online attacks against people he dislikes and manoeuvres behind the scenes to evade scrutiny and recruit sympathy. That is not a fit person to lead this charity. As rose-tinted as the boards spectacles are here, it's ludicrous that his behaviour has escaped all of your notice... or even that you are unconcerned about it! --ErrantX (talk) 12:03, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Really? I'm not exactly a fan of Arbcom's decision in this case but Arbcom decided 8 3 that he hadn't been accused of infringing copyright. Of course that was Arbcom at their silliest - he clearly had been accused of infringing copyright, and if you read the individual postings the eight were responding to the allegations not the actual wording of the section heading. But on investigation the allegations either didn't stick up or they wound up like this debate about chroming and freedom of panorama. He and I are on opposite sides on that discussion, but there is a big gulf between borderline freedom of panorama issues like that and the badfaith copy and paste stuff that we block people for. WereSpielChequers (talk) 13:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I would have preferred not to have to comment, but I can't let that attack stand without challenge. Where is the evidence of "issues understanding copyright" or of "vicious online attacks against people he dislikes"? I've read the entire ArbCom case more than once, and I know full well that if any such issues existed, they would be noted in those pages. There was no finding of fact corresponding to the charges that you make and you need to either justify your allegations with concrete evidence or fully retract them. I might also remind you that ArbCom did conclude that "Fæ has been the target of a sustained campaign of criticism and some harassment" in FoF 3 and that unsupported allegations of the kind made above simply have the effect of extending that campaign beyond the bounds of fair criticism. --RexxS (talk) 13:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Here's one GLAM related example. [Added: it seems reasonable to consider this - and other issues - of importance in relation to his role in working with institutions]. There has been strong evidence of misusing flickr accounts to upload copyrighted images - so called "Flickr washing". Unfortunately Ashley appears to have been able to cover this matter up and it is no longer possible to piece together the full evidence of this. As to vicious online attacks; I was one example. In addition he levels accusations of harassment at a number of peoples on Commons with regularity. And made staunch attempts to impose restrictions of people involved in off-wiki websites he is in dispute with. [Added: I don't consider this the end of the world - and I am coloured against him as a person due to our interactions, but it should surely be worrying behaviour] With respect to harassment; I am sympathetic to this problem, having been harassed significantly (physical and internet-based) myself. However a) Ashley confuses ridicule with harassment and b) there is no evidence, with one exception, that anyone involved at this stage is harassing Ashley. He has suggested he received threats etc. which would constitute harassment - but no one has accused anyone here of perpetrating that. --ErrantX (talk) 13:19, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

On balance I removed/refactored one accusation as it's a bit unfair of me to pursue as I can't prove anything. --ErrantX (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I've looked at the example you link to, re the Wrights Biscuits image. Is this really the best you have? I can't for the life of me see why anyone would think this, or frankly "issues understanding copyright" at all, is relevant to a motion to remove a directorship of a real organization from someone in the real world. Johnbod (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

If Fae believes that Arbcom erred then the appropriate response was for him to resign as chairman and launch an appeal. To say we support Wikipedia and then treat it's highest elected body as if it doesn't count makes no sense, even if we think they are completely wrong in a particular case. Arbcom were elected by en:WP and because of that they deserve the support of the WMUK board. Anything else will just lead to drama and civil war. If there is anyone here who thinks the Arbcom decision is wrong then they should start a discussion on en:WP. The merits of the Arbcom decision are (in my opinion) off topic for this wiki. Only the decision itself is notable. Filceolaire (talk) 20:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

He couldn't have appealed the ArbCom decision, there is no appeal. You can write to Jimbo but he rarely intervenes. The "appeal" after 6 months isn't really an appeal, this is simply a sort of parole board system. If you put forward any argument disputing the findings in the original case, you can forget about being let back in.

And actually, this system isn't as bad as it looks, as long as ArbCom sticks to imposing remedies to deal with problematic editing. It then doesnt matter that much to get the facts precisely right in a he said she said dispute if it is plain that there is a dispute that is hindering the editing in certain areas.

It is only because editors are now also punished for past problems that do not affect the future editing of Wikipedia that you get this brouhaha during and after the case. The lack of an appeals system is then a problem. Count Iblis (talk) 21:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Jimmy is subscribed to the 'arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org' mailing list, where private evidence is sent and arbitrator discussions occur, and he is listed in arbitration policy as the appeal route for ArbCom decisions.(see w:en:Wikipedia:Arbitration/Policy#Appeal_of_decisions) In regards to this case, today Jimmy has said "[The Arbitration Committee] made a very solid decision based on facts." John Vandenberg (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Last I knew, he was only subscribed to two of the three arbcom mailing lists (there's a -b and -c list for cases where arbitrators are recused). I think Jimmy's appeal ability has to be seen as a one-shot chance, in the same way that the Queen could overrule parliament, but only once and only on a big issue - and there was a lot of opposition to him overruling the last time I was on ArbCom. I'm not sure what it's like now, but I suspect it's not too different. Regardless, this isn't really the place to be discussing the ins and outs of ArbCom decisions. The fact is, that ArbCom made a decision. The membership of WMUK now have to make a different decision, and I want to ask that those who aren't members of the charity will allow those who are to make that decision without this issues becoming a side-battle for pro/anti-enwp-Arbcom discussions. (Statement made as a volunteer, and in good faith - I know that both JVDB and CountIblis have the best of intentions, but I can't abide the thought of this becoming an adjunct of ANI...) User:Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 22:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Are you trying to suggest that Jimmy's comment above is not valid or well informed? Or that User:Count Iblis and I shouldn't be commenting on the discussion page of a wiki hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation? :P

I have added a description of the other two lists (arbcom-en-b and arbcom-en-c) to w:WP:ARBCOM, so everyone can see that those lists are irrelevant. It is reasonable to assume that Jimmy has seen all of the emails related to the Fae case. If you have reason to believe otherwise, please say so plainly.

Your comment is also misleading and irrelevant regarding Jimmy's ability to review a case. Comparisons between Jimmy and the Queen are just silly. Jimmy regularly reviews ArbCom decisions after the fact, and sometimes even gets involved in private Arbcom discussions regarding ongoing cases, etc. Usually after a review, Jimmy agrees with the ArbCom decision, or at least respects that the Arbitration Committee made a valid choice. Also, the wiki didn't crumble when Arbcom overturned one of Jimmy's decisions (w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2012-02-27/Arbitration report). I can't recall Jimmy overturning an Arbcom decision, however he often responds to questions regarding Arbcom decisions, and formally reviews decisions when there is valid concerns about the decision, and the community appears happy with him being the sole appeal route (w:en:Wikipedia talk:Arbitration/Policy#An amendment to policy, regarding appeal routes).

As others have been saying here, if WMUK doesnt like the ArbCom decision, the appropriate response is to appeal to Jimmy. I find it very inappropriate for Trustees of WMUK to be publicly disagreeing with the ArbCom decision without publicly stating that they are appealing the decision to Jimmy. John Vandenberg (talk) 00:37, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

WMUK is not a party to the case, so I don't see how it can really appeal it... --Tango (talk) 00:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Obviously the appeal would be better coming from Fae, but I think any Wiki UK member has a good reason to ask Jimmy to review the case given it precipitated this call for an EGM, and IMO trustees have an obligation to do so in order that the members can make an informed decision at the EGM. John Vandenberg (talk) 02:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

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Discussed hatted. Take this to another wiki. Seddon (talk) 02:43, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

"Neutral" EGM?

I find it confusing to see this:

Please note, by signing you are not expressing an opinion about whether Ashley should remain on the Board. You are simply saying that you want to have a General Meeting so that we members can discuss the matter and reach a decision, whatever that decision may be.

When the request itself says this:

Is it our intention to move the following resolution: "This meeting resolves, pursuant to Section 168 of the Companies Act 2006, to remove Ashley Van Haeften [...]

Deryck Chan (talk) 08:56, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

A proposal to remove a director pursuant to Section 168 of the Companies Act 2006 requires special notice be given of such a resolution. As such, the above notice has to be given if the resolution are to be available as an option for the EGM. That doesn't mean the meeting will actually move such a resolution. KTC (talk) 09:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. We wouldn't be able to vote on it if it notice wasn't given. I will move the resolution so that we can get a definitive decision made, but I don't know what that decision will be (I don't even know how I'll vote). --Tango (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming that people will only sign if they want him to stand down. Pretending that the recall itself is not a recall petition just seems a bit shabby to me. WereSpielChequers (talk) 10:12, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

You can assume whatever you like, but I can tell you that I haven't made up my mind how to vote. This is not a recall, this is call for an EGM. As the call says repeatedly, the EGM will be to discuss and then vote. There isn't much point having a discussion if everyone has made up their minds in advance. I think there is significant advantage to the members making a decision, whatever that decision may be. If the meeting rejects the motion and shows that it has confidence in Fae, then he will have a clear mandate to continue in his position and we can make it clear to the press that it is a decision of the charity members. Either way, we will have a little closure on the whole thing. --Tango (talk) 11:07, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The trouble is that such things are in effect recall petitions, so when five people signed it he resigned as chair. If that wasn't your intention then that's a real shame. But we've now lost our Chair. WereSpielChequers (talk) 17:39, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Message from Chief Executive

Moved here from call itself. --Tango (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I have discussed this matter with Fae this morning. He is keen that there should be no division in the WMUK community over his role as Chair, especially at a time when so many great things are being achieved. He has therefore resigned as Chair. A board meeting, already scheduled for this evening, will see the election of a new Chair. Jon Davies WMUK (talk) 13:29, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for letting us know. The EGM is intended to discuss Fae's place on the board, rather than his position as chair (in my opinion, decisions about the chair are for the board to make, not the membership), so it is still relevant. --Tango (talk) 13:35, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The EGM statement says Fae is chair of the board. It needs to be updated, or the message from the Chief Executive re-instated. John Vandenberg (talk) 22:15, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Very briefly, as I'm at work. I believe Fae has taken the right decision, in the circumstances, to step down as Chair. However, I believe he still has a valuable role to play on the Board. If we do have an EGM with a motion to remove Fae as a trustee, I will speak against the motion. But I hope that members will consider Fae's resignation as Chair to be the end of the matter, and that we can avoid having the un-necessary distraction entailed by an EGM. The Land (talk) 14:05, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with The Land. Media attention seems to be quieting down. The EGM push seemed to be a response to that attention. Fae has now stepped down as Chair to facilitate focusing on the work of Wikimedia UK. It could be prudent to wait until the next media cycle is complete before calling an EGM. Jess T (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree completely with Chris on this. Thanks. Mike Peel (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I am amazed that the only consideration here seems to be about the media. This person has been banned from Wikipedia! For six months! How can he remain in the executive of any Wikipedia-related organization? DevilShamer (talk) 14:49, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, he's banned indefinitely. He can appeal in 6 months. --Tango (talk) 15:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Point of order (without taking sides): He's no longer the Chair, so he's not in the executive. The Executive consists of the Chief Exec, the Chairman, the Treasurer and the Secretary. Richard Symonds (talk) 15:26, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I think DevilShamer meant senior leadership, rather than specifically the executive subcommittee of the board - an imprecise use of terminology, perhaps. --Tango (talk) 16:30, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Don't be amazed. Wiki-politics unfortunately creates a number of such spats and splits. Fae is still an editor in good standing on Commons where he has 294K edits, nearly 4 times the 77K he has on English Wikipedia. WMUK is an independent organization, and having spent time a year ago assuring and re-assuring the Charity Commission of this, which was one of their major concerns, I am very firmly opposed indeed to the idea that the Arbitration Committee or WMF or anyone else has the ability to control, select or deselect the WMUK board, which is a matter entirely for the membership of WMUK itself. Nor have either the Arbcom or the Foundation said, publicly or privately, anything about Fae's WMUK positions (which would indeed be very improper of of them). Johnbod (talk) 17:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The independence of WMUK is imperative. When spin gets media attention it's a shame. As the media lose interest external pressures will abate. The hard work by the volunteers and staff of WMUK will continue to enrich the mission of the WMF and society. Jess T (talk) 19:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The Telegraph, who first reported the ban, have now reported the resignation as well: [1]. It's a pretty good article. --Tango (talk) 19:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Damn, better be careful what you say on this page, or you'll end up quoted by the Telegraph. Although they really shouldn't assume that everyone commenting here is necessarily a "Wikimedia UK member". BabelStone (talk) 21:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)}

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 :If Arbcom erred, and I'm not the only one who thinks they did, then yes it does matter that in recognising that he was harassed but banning him anyway they got this wrong. As for the idea that simply resigning as chair would have defused things and let him continue as a trustee, sadly I don't think that would work. He withdrew from the topic of gay pornstars because his editing there was contentious, but that didn't stop his critics. He quit as admin despite no-one criticising his admin actions, but that didn't stop what had by then become harassment. If he were to quit as chair of WMUK despite no-one criticising his actions as chair do you seriously think he would have been left in peace to continue serving as a trustee? If he ceases to be a trustee what confidence can we have that he could continue his GLAM work without harassment starting against him being active in that? At some point he is entitled to stop retreating. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 08:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 ::I argee that ArbCom erred, but not in the way you suggest. Being the victim of harassment does not make one infallible... why would the fact that he was harassed automatically make the ban a wrong decision? They erred because they sentenced him based on vague and unsubstantiated claims, rather than on what there was actually evidence for. There is very clear evidence that Fae did some things wrong, but nothing ban-worthy. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 11:10, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
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 :::There wasn't any harassment. Sharing and discussing facts and opinions isn't harassment. Judging from posts in the mailing lists, Wikimedia UK doesn't even like it when the news shares facts. --[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] ([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|talk]]) 12:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
 ::::Really? So why do you think arbcom banned you from the English Wikipedia? Creating a critical page about a gay man on a website that tolerates homphobia is harassment. You personally didn't add the "faggot" bits to that page, but as an admin on that site you should have known that was acceptable there. [[User:WereSpielChequers|WereSpielChequers]] ([[User talk:WereSpielChequers|talk]]) 12:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
@@ Line 33: / Line 34: @@
 ::::::Obviously the appeal would be better coming from Fae, but I think any Wiki UK member has a good reason to ask Jimmy to review the case given it precipitated this call for an EGM, and IMO trustees have an obligation to do so in order that the members can make an informed decision at the EGM. [[User:John Vandenberg|John Vandenberg]] ([[User talk:John Vandenberg|talk]]) 02:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
+{{Collapse bottom]]
+Discussed hatted. Take this to another wiki. [[User:Seddon|Seddon]] ([[User talk:Seddon|talk]]) 02:43, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 == "Neutral" EGM? ==
@@ Line 68: / Line 72: @@
 :The Telegraph, who first reported the ban, have now reported the resignation as well: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/9447161/Wikipedia-charity-chairman-resigns-after-pornography-row.html]. It's a pretty good article. --[[User:Tango|Tango]] ([[User talk:Tango|talk]]) 19:31, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
-::Damn, better be careful what you say on this page, or you'll end up quoted by the Telegraph.  Although they really shouldn't assume that everyone commenting here is necessarily a "Wikimedia UK member". [[User:BabelStone|BabelStone]] ([[User talk:BabelStone|talk]]) 21:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
+::Damn, better be careful what you say on this page, or you'll end up quoted by the Telegraph.  Although they really shouldn't assume that everyone commenting here is necessarily a "Wikimedia UK member". [[User:BabelStone|BabelStone]] ([[User talk:BabelStone|talk]]) 21:32, 2 August 2012 (UTC)}

Talk:Call for EGM 2012: Difference between revisions

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