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| {{divbox|blue|Welcome to the engine room|This is a place to ask about and discuss the inner workings of the charity. To discuss our external projects and activities, see how you can get involved or suggest ideas that could help our charitable mission, head over to the [[water cooler]].}} | | {{divbox|blue|Welcome to the engine room|This is a place to ask about and discuss the inner workings of the charity. To discuss our external projects and activities, see how you can get involved or suggest ideas that could help our charitable mission, head over to the [[water cooler]].}} |
| {|style="float:right;border:solid silver 1px;margin-left:8px;margin-bottom:4px;" | | {| style="float:right;border:solid silver 1px;margin-left:8px;margin-bottom:4px;" |
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| |[[File:Archives.png|x100px]] | | |[[File:Archives.png|x100px]] |
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| |align=center|{{#ifexist:Engine_room/2013|[[/2013|2013]]}}{{#ifexist:Engine_room/2014|<br>[[/2014|2014]]}} | | | align="center" |{{#ifexist:Engine_room/2013|[[/2013|2013]]}}{{#ifexist:Engine_room/2014|<br>[[/2014|2014]]}}{{#ifexist:Engine_room/2015|<br>[[/2015|2015]]}} |
| |} | | |} |
| __TOC__ | | __TOC__ |
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| == Where can I find 2014 programmes as opposed to just budget? == | | ==Suggestions of potential events to attend== |
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| I was wondering where last year's ideas for activities around this year's centenary of the First World War had gone, or what outcomes there had been in this area even if it had been reduced, considering there was originally '''[[2013_Activity_Plan#World_Wars_I_and_II_project|£20,000]]''' agreed by the trustees to be spent on it. Checking [http://wikimedia.org.uk/w/index.php?title=2014_Activity_Plan/GLAM_Outreach&oldid=54330 2014 Activity Plan/GLAM Outreach] I was surprised that this document contains no details of any GLAM projects, in fact it only appears to link to a budget for 2013 and the section on "timelines" remains blank apart from the note ''please add details''.
| | [[Project grants/Photographs covering African cultural events in London]] asks for suggestions of potential events to attend. My suggestion would be classic car rallies. A lot of wikipedia's car photos are taken of parked cars which tends to result in wide angle shots with messy backgrounds which tend not to look that great. Rallies where cars are driven allow you to get shots at longer focal lengths with cleaner backgrounds. A specific recommendation would be Great Dorset Steam Fair. As well as steam they have a lot of cars and bikes. I went there last year and was able to get stuff [[:commons:Category:Great Dorset Steam Fair (2016)|like this]] |
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| Where can I find a tangible 2014 plan for GLAM, with details that can be measured as opposed to reports of stuff that has already happened? --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 11:07, 9 May 2014 (BST)
| | == Confirmation emails not arriving == |
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| :Based on the fact that it has now been a week, this appears to be a "non-success". | | [[Special:ConfirmEmail]] does not seem to be working for me. How long is the lag, typically? Please [[w:WP:NOTIFY|notify]] me in your reply. Thanks! [[User:Zazpot|Zazpot]] ([[User talk:Zazpot|talk]]) 20:18, 28 June 2017 (BST) |
| :I suggest that the board of trustees consider changing the Activity Plan wording so that there is a realistic expectation given to members that when we discuss plans, the charity means standard budget forecasts, reports of what happened in the previous quarter and actions (not plans) for the coming quarter.
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| :These would normally be called "reports" and in addition one would expect the CEO to ensure a schedule spanning the funded programmes is maintained (the next 12 months in the case of this charity) and a work breakdown with associated measurable outcomes. The board of trustees may find this a useful strategic discussion at some point soon, in order to help provide the quality of oversight that most large national charities would expect. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 12:21, 15 May 2014 (BST) | |
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| ::While it has been almost a week since your question, our GLAM Organiser is part-time. A considerable amount of his time has been spent on helping with FDC reporting for Q1 so you may have to wait for an answer. When he is next in I will ask Jonathan Cardy when he has time to answer. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:49, 15 May 2014 (BST) | | :Hi {{ping|Zazpot}}, thanks for letting us know. I've [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org.uk/show_bug.cgi?id=433 asked our developers to take a look]. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:27, 29 June 2017 (BST) |
| :::I was expecting either a link to the plan so I could look at it, or a statement saying there is no plan. My question was not intended to be directed at anyone, I certainly am not asking employees direct questions. This could be answered by the CEO, any trustee as they follow and review these documents, or another unpaid volunteer up to date on programme reporting, who might be comfortable answering. | | : |
| :::As it happens I have been in discussion with Jonathan on other matters in this time. I note that the Activity Plan does not name Jonathan as being responsible for a plan, and that the supporting detailed document says "Daria Cybulska with delegated support from Jonathan Cardy" which I was aware of, but had made no assumptions about. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 15:09, 15 May 2014 (BST)
| | ::{{ping|Richard Nevell (WMUK)}} thanks for this. Confirmation email still not received. Other emails to the same address seems to be reaching me fine. [[User:Zazpot|Zazpot]] ([[User talk:Zazpot|talk]]) 11:32, 29 June 2017 (BST) |
| ::::Likewise Daria and the CEO have been extraordinarily busy in particular with drafting the FDC report. I'm afraid an answer will have to wait until staff workloads are more manageable. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 16:10, 15 May 2014 (BST) | | :: |
| :::::Thanks. I am sorry that the last week had been a bad time. Again, it was never my intention for this to be seen a question directed to an employee. | | :::It hasn't ended up in spam by any chance? It sounds likely that something's broken. Special:PasswordReset is working so the wiki is able to send out some emails, so it might just be an issue with Special:ConfirmEmail. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 12:14, 29 June 2017 (BST) |
| :::::{{ping|MichaelMaggs}} Would a trustee or a knowledgeable volunteer like to answer my question? It seems a simple and short one if anyone knows the answer. Thanks --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 16:57, 15 May 2014 (BST)
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| | ::::{{ping|Richard Nevell (WMUK)}} no, sadly not. I checked the spam folder before posting here (and have checked it again just now). Pressed the "Mail a confirmation code" button again today, just in case it had started working again, but still no joy. Will try signing up to the Bugzilla instance, so that I can follow up there. [[User:Zazpot|Zazpot]] ([[User talk:Zazpot|talk]]) 21:48, 4 July 2017 (BST) |
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| :It has now over <s>2 weeks</s> 6 weeks since my question "Where can I find a tangible 2014 plan" was raised. I am sorry if this has been seen as a trick question of some sort, it was not intended that way. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 10:36, 25 June 2014 (BST) | | == Meta: Spam == |
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| :Nearly 16 weeks have gone by no reply, apart from an explanation that employees are busy. Certainly Wikimania and ensuring that I was not allowed membership at the AGM, were understandable priority matters for employees, however I hope that the board appreciates that letting this question drift in silence for 4 months does not make the charity appear open to questions about plans and reporting from its unpaid volunteers. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 13:26, 26 August 2014 (BST) | | Hi all, heck of a [[:Category:Speedy deletions|lot of spam]] which could do with deleting. Whilst I'm here, could someone rename my account to [[User:There'sNoTime]]? [[User:Samtar|Samtar]] ([[User talk:Samtar|talk]]) 14:36, 4 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | :Oh, and an edit filter would be good eh? [[User:Samtar|Samtar]] ([[User talk:Samtar|talk]]) 14:37, 4 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | ::I've renamed your account as requested, and am taking a look at some of the spam. An edit filter would definitely be worthwhile, but I don't know how to set one up. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 17:05, 4 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | :::{{ping|Richard Nevell (WMUK)}} I'm +sysop/EFM on enwp, happy to set something up if you'd like? [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] ([[User talk:There'sNoTime|talk]]) 17:52, 4 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | ::::{{ping|There'sNoTime}} Yes please, do you need admin access here to set it up? [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:20, 5 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | :::::{{ping|Richard Nevell (WMUK)}} I will do, if that's alright? -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 14:22, 5 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | ::::::{{ping|There'sNoTime}} Absolutely, you're now an admin. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:44, 12 December 2017 (GMT) |
| | :::::::Cheers, just testing something now -- [[User:There'sNoTime|There'sNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:There'sNoTime|to explain]])</sup> 11:09, 12 December 2017 (GMT) |
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| ::This question has been left hanging for quite some time now. It seems quite a reasonable question. Could someone please answer it, or if no one is able to do so, explain why no answer is available? (Or, I guess, explain why the question is not reasonable). [[User:TheOverflow|TheOverflow]] ([[User talk:TheOverflow|talk]]) 20:41, 16 September 2014 (BST)
| | == Staff group photo == |
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| :::Apologies from the office this delay is not good enough. The full reply should come from our GLAM organiser but personal business has taken him out of the country. I have emailed him with a request to reply once he has returned. In mitigation we could point to Wikimania and the summer holidays but this should not have slipped.
| | I've just spotted that the staff group photo is rather out of date - it still features Richard S who hasn't been staff for a couple of years now for example. I suggest someone puts this in the diary for a day when you have a full house in the office and it isn't snowing! [[user:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] (talk: [[user talk:Thryduulf|local]] | [[w:user talk:Thryduulf|en.wp]] | [[wikt:user talk:Thryduulf|en.wikt]]) 17:29, 2 March 2018 (GMT) |
| | :Agreed. 2015 is a long time ago and there have been several staff changes since then. [[User:MichaelMaggs|MichaelMaggs]] ([[User talk:MichaelMaggs|talk]]) 21:48, 8 July 2018 (BST) |
| | ::I will try to take one at the Christmas lunch. It's not been easy to get everyone in the same place at the same time! [[User:John Lubbock (WMUK)|John Lubbock (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:John Lubbock (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:44, 5 December 2018 (GMT) |
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| :::I can shed a little light on one or two things though. Fist the World War One issues. We once had high hopes for a Wikmedian in Residence at the Imperial War Museum (IWM) and put funds in the budgets for two years. It just didn't happen owing to one delay after another (although we did do a really excellent WW1 Editathon at the British Library). Eventually the anniversary came too close and we were forced to concede defeat. We are however still in friendly dialogue with the IWM and have hopes for something substantial in the future.
| | == Wikimedia VLE == |
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| :::Our reporting systems have changed a great deal since the advent of the FDC grant and their reporting requirements. These outline the programme and define the metrics for success. All GLAM activities are of course also reported in the "This Month In Glam" newsletter(thismonthinglam@gmail.com) You will find details of our programme there. In addition our GLAM organiser has his own plan with more detail but I will leave him to reply. [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:10, 18 September 2014 (BST) | | Is the [http://moodle.wikimedia.org.uk/ Wikimedia VLE] dead? If so, [https://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Virtual_Learning_Environment information about it] should be updated. |
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| :::Thanks TheOverflow. As your comment here got a response within one working day while it is now 19 weeks (that's 4 months and 9 days) since my original request, I think it reasonable to conclude that the delay was due to the person asking the question being publicly blanked, not actually the words or tone of the question itself, or that the relevant member of staff has been unavailable or too busy to respond for one third of a year. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 12:32, 19 September 2014 (BST)
| | ==Recent changes== |
| :Apologies for tardy response. The GLAM plan is linked to [[2014 Activity Plan/GLAM Outreach]] I will watchlist the talkpage of that if anyone wishes to discuss specifics. The programme is discussed in the GLAM committee minutes and agendas which are published in [[:Category:GLAM Committee]] and expanded reports are on the [https://outreach.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:This_Month_in_GLAM_UK_reports Outreach wiki]. [[User:Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)|Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)|talk]]) 13:48, 19 September 2014 (BST) | | Is the wiki going to be updated with the new recent changes interface? [[User:Leutha|Leutha]] ([[User talk:Leutha|talk]]) 11:03, 29 November 2018 (GMT) |
| | ::Hi [[User:Leutha|Leutha]], we would love to update lots of things on the wiki. I hope that once we sort out other things with the site we can get around to this, but we probably need assistance fom people who are expert at MediaWiki. [[User:John Lubbock (WMUK)|John Lubbock (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:John Lubbock (WMUK)|talk]]) 12:31, 2 April 2019 (BST) |
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| ::Hi Jonathan, thanks for the link to the Google document (GLAM plan 2014). This was created in April, which was before I asked my question 4 months ago, so it could have part of a reply. Since the plan was created I have become the only volunteer officially indefinitely unable to pay for membership and so cannot apply to the chapter for funding my projects. You may want to consider removing or clarifying the two that are claimed as part of the plan, as the chapter is no longer in communication with me about them.
| | == Watchlist broken == |
| ::WWI and WWII events are not part of the document, so whether they happen would not be a specific measure of success, as these are not an identified outcome. This may be because the GLAM plan 2014 is focused on budget estimates and associated high level metrics, rather than being a conventional plan with named outcomes or timescales for delivering specific project outcomes. --[[User:Fæ|Fæ]] ([[User talk:Fæ|talk]]) 16:55, 19 September 2014 (BST)
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| :::Dear Fae, we have funds available for equipment and other costs involved in projects such as the mass uploads you are doing. For example there has to be an upload size where it is sensible to transport a physical device to the states rather than upload over the Internet. If that looks like it will happen then please send me an email before you spend anything and I will see what I can do. As for the plan, I take your point and will do some updates. We are in the process of accepting an equipment donation which will require some plan updating. [[User:Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)|Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:16, 20 September 2014 (BST)
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| == Moving pages on this wiki ==
| | Nothing is showing on my watchlist. In the box, there is the text: |
| | :Below are the last '''0''' changes in the last '''720''' hours, as of 30 November 2018, 12:26. |
| | Under the box, it says |
| | :No changes during the given period match these criteria. |
| | At [[Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-watchlist|Preferences]], I have the following relevant settings: |
| | *Days to show in watchlist: 30 |
| | *Maximum number of changes to show in watchlist: 250 |
| | *{{tick|12}} Expand watchlist to show all changes, not just the most recent |
| | *{{cross|12}} Hide minor edits from the watchlist |
| | *{{cross|12}} Hide bot edits from the watchlist |
| | *{{cross|12}} Hide my edits from the watchlist |
| | *{{cross|12}} Hide edits by anonymous users from the watchlist |
| | *{{cross|12}} Hide edits by logged in users from the watchlist |
| | One of my watched pages is [[Events]], which normally attracts at least one edit each week. But not even the last edit (which was at 12:23, 22 November 2018) is showing. Has there been a MediaWiki config change that would affect this? --[[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]; [[:wikipedia:User:Redrose64|at English Wikipedia]]) 12:28, 30 November 2018 (GMT) |
| | :Supplemental: I also have the setting |
| | ::{{tick|12}} Add pages and files I edit to my watchlist |
| | :and I made sure that the "Watch this page" checkbox was ticked before I saved; but despite both of those, this page (Engine room) was ''not'' added to [[Special:EditWatchlist]] after I saved the above post. Nor was [[Water cooler]] added after I made [[Special:Diff/80704|this edit]]. This suggests that there seems to be a wider problem. The "watch" star works, but it's an extra step that I don't need to make on other wikis. --[[User:Redrose64|Redrose64]] ([[User talk:Redrose64|talk]]; [[:wikipedia:User:Redrose64|at English Wikipedia]]) 12:44, 30 November 2018 (GMT) |
| | :I think this relates to the Recent Changes not working, which led to my query aboce. [[User:Leutha|Leutha]] ([[User talk:Leutha|talk]]) 12:48, 30 November 2018 (GMT) |
| | :I'm seeing exactly the same issue with both watchlists and recent changes. I'll ping the mailing list as that gets a bit more traffic these days. [[user:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] (talk: [[user talk:Thryduulf|local]] | [[w:user talk:Thryduulf|en.wp]] | [[wikt:user talk:Thryduulf|en.wikt]]) 12:51, 30 November 2018 (GMT) |
| | ::Hi Chris, I'll try to forward this issue on, but it is possible that it is part of the same problem we are having with a lot of our sites at the moment. I'll try to keep you informed when i hear what the problem is.[[User:John Lubbock (WMUK)|John Lubbock (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:John Lubbock (WMUK)|talk]]) 16:14, 30 November 2018 (GMT) |
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| I noticed the page-move vandalism on this wiki earlier today and an increase in vandalism in general since the migration of this wiki away from the WMF wiki family (which was done for reasons I still don't fully understand, and I'm extremely sceptical as to whether it was worth the increased hassle), but since page moves don't need to be done that frequently and are rarely urgent, should the function be restricted to administrators?<p>I would also suggest to the board that, since we no longer have the benefit of assistance from the small wiki monitoring team and stewards (some of whom are often awake while most of the UK is asleep), it takes a more liberal approach to the granting of admin rights on this wiki (and that some effort is put into recruiting volunteers to look after the wiki). [[User:HJ Mitchell|Harry Mitchell]] ([[User talk:HJ Mitchell|talk]]) 00:18, 7 July 2014 (BST)
| | Any progress to report on this? [[User:TheOverflow|TheOverflow]] ([[User talk:TheOverflow|talk]]) 06:21, 22 July 2019 (BST) |
| : This makes a lot of sense to me - although it would be better to restrict page moves to [auto]confirmed users instead of just admins. I've echo'd the suggestion on the technology mailing list, since RecentChanges is rather busy at the moment: [http://lists.wikimedia.org.uk/pipermail/technology/2014-July/000106.html]. Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 18:38, 7 July 2014 (BST) | | :I thought I would check recent changes by adding this edit . . . [[User:Leutha|Leutha]] ([[User talk:Leutha|talk]]) 07:34, 19 October 2019 (BST) |
| :: According to [[Special:ListGroupRights]] the page move function is now restricted to administrators. I don't have any great objections to this, as pages don't need to be moved that often, though I don't think it was even restricted to autoconfirmed users before, so as Mike says, trying this first might be better. | | ::. . . and then seeing if the edit comes up – which it does not, so I think we are left with the old adage of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Good_Soldier_%C5%A0vejk Good Editor Schweik]] "beg to report there is noting to report". [[User:Leutha|Leutha]] ([[User talk:Leutha|talk]]) 07:47, 19 October 2019 (BST) |
| | :::That this has been outstanding for more than a year doesn't reflect well on the charity: most people would expect Wikimedia UK to be able to make its own wiki work... but I suppose that's not a priority any more. [[User:TheOverflow|TheOverflow]] ([[User talk:TheOverflow|talk]]) 09:05, 29 December 2019 (GMT) |
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| :: I also agree with taking a more liberal approach on giving out the admin tools, and I would be happy to see it given to any member of the chapter in good standing, since staff probably have better things to be doing than dealing with vandalism and spam. I'll put my hand up as someone interested – I regularly check recent changes, sometimes at odd hours of the day. I've got the tools already on the Wikimania 2014 wiki to help keep spam and vandalism at bay and I'm happy to offer my services here too. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 18:45, 7 July 2014 (BST)
| | == Recent changes to MediaWiki namespace files == |
| ::::Thanks for volunteering. You are now an admin! --[[User:MichaelMaggs|MichaelMaggs]] ([[User talk:MichaelMaggs|talk]]) 19:02, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::ps If any other trusted members would like to help out, please see [[Permissions Policy]].--[[User:MichaelMaggs|MichaelMaggs]] ([[User talk:MichaelMaggs|talk]]) 19:02, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::: Thank you. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 20:15, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::: "Move pages (move)" is also listed as a right that 'users' have... Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 18:47, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::: Indeed it is. My mistake. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 20:15, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::Yup - it is still a right of the "users" group. It ought to be editable in LocalSettings.php, according to the Mediawiki manual, but I can't see that page (no doubt for good reason!).
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| ::::AbuseFilter looks helpful but is a little too technical for me to be able to us it. [[User:The Land|The Land]] ([[User talk:The Land|talk]]) 19:49, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::: Same with me. I can do range blocks if needed, but I've never gotten to grips with the abuse filter. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 20:15, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::Emmanuel has reported that the abuse filter extension has been installed. Jon Davies has asked for page moves be restricted to admins, in the meanwhile the high profile pages on this wiki have been fully move protected individually.
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| ::There are no "confirmed" or "auto confirmed" user groups on this wiki so there is no permission level between user and administrator. Personally therefore I think restricting moves to admins makes sense in that context. The priv can be extended to a trusted user group if desired at a later date if one is created (a separate discussion I feel). [[User:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|Chris McKenna (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|talk]]) 18:53, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::: Yeah, in the longterm a user group with the ability to move page, the autopatrol flag and anything else useful would be nice. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 21:06, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::: I've just made an editfilter to tag edits from new users who dramatically reduce a pagesize or blank it. Sadly the filter won't save, so I've filed a bug (282). Once we get the editfilter working, we can have precisely defined checks on vandalism by adapting what's available already on en-wp or by writing our own. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 21:23, 7 July 2014 (BST)
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| It looks like unregistered users can create pages on this wiki too. It might be helpful if this was restricted to registered accounts, though I do recognize that much of the recent spam/vandalism has come from registered users anyway. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 20:55, 8 July 2014 (BST)
| | Hi all - just a courtesy message letting you know I've made some changes to a couple of MediaWiki namespace files (namely [[MediaWiki:Common.js]]). These [[Special:Diff/82763|changes]] ''affect all users'', and were implemented solely due to function depreciation. Please let me know (preferably on [[:en:User talk:TheresNoTime|my English Wikipedia talk page]]) if there are any issues ~[[User:There'sNoTime|TNT]] (she/her • [[User talk:There'sNoTime|talk]]) 14:58, 5 October 2021 (BST) |
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| === Abuse Filter === | | == Installed versions of MediaWiki and PHP are end-of-life == |
| The abuse filter is now up and running. [[Special:AbuseFilter]] is the start point. The [[Special:AbuseLog|AbuseLog]] will keep track of all actions caught by the filters.
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| I've created a filter (New user blanking pages) that should flag edits that are:
| | The currently installed version of MediaWiki ([[:mw:MediaWiki 1.31|1.31]]) went [[:en:End-of-life_product#Computing|EOL]] on the 30th September 2021 - we should urgently upgrade to the latest LTS version ([[:mw:MediaWiki 1.35|1.35]]), and ideally to the latest stable version ([[:mw:MediaWiki 1.36|1.36]]). |
| # not made by an admin;
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| # reduce the page size from over 500 bytes to less than 50 bytes; | |
| # made by a user with less than 10 edits
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| # made by a user who has not edited the page before.
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| All of those have to be true to trigger the filter, but it's easy to modify that behaviour. At present it just tags the edit, but it could be changed to forbid the edit, block the editor, etc. as required.
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| Creating an edit filter is not difficult and I'm happy to implement requests - or show you how to make your own filter. Perhaps we need a central place to discuss what is needed and what sorts of actions are acceptable? Thoughts, comments, requests are welcome. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 19:06, 13 August 2014 (BST)
| | We will ''also'' need to upgrade to [[:mw:Compatibility#PHP|PHP]] version 7.3.19 or higher, as our currently installed version ([[Special:Version#sv-software|7.2.30]]) is not supported (and is also EOL). |
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| :Thank you RexxS, that should be useful. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:09, 15 August 2014 (BST)
| | Have we previously reached out to the Wikimedia Foundation, as I am certain they would happily host this MediaWiki installation? ~[[User:TheresNoTime|TheresNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:TheresNoTime|to explain!]])</sup> 14:40, 1 November 2021 (GMT) |
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| == Naming of pages in dated series == | | == Spam == |
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| As can be seen from [[:Category:Meeting agendas]], we used to name pages logically, like [[Meetings/2009-03-02/Agenda]]. This meant that they sorted chronologically, and could be easily found using the wiki search feature's autocomplete (someone could, for example, type "Meetings/2009-03" without needing to know the exact date was the 2nd).
| | Hi, yesterday I stumbled upon a site (off-wiki) that had a spam link pointing to a page of this wiki. Having had a closer look I fell off my chair and added wikimedia.org.uk to my [[commons:User:Achim55/Wikis that are abused by spammers|list of spam servers]] as it is highly contaminated. The account creating rate by spambots has increased here to about 1000 per day. The rate of spam page creations (or edits) is the same. I happen to be the one who is holding the high score of blocks on the Commons and thought about offering some help cleaning up this crap but it's impossible. Deleting or at least tagging tens of thousands of pages and accounts while continuously new ones are created is a joke. One could seriously consider to shut down this wiki. If not, following had to be done ASAP |
| | | # Restrict the account generation either by adding a captcha on creation or even by using a closed user group (acc creation disabled by default) |
| More recently, formats like [[Agenda 29Jun10]] have been used; this is far less useful.
| | # Get the SBLs running. As I just checked on my tp neither the local nor the global SBL are in effect. And I didn't find a SBL log. |
| | | # A publicly accessible wiki like this one should not be run without any abuse filter, there seems to be no [[Special:AbuseLog]]. |
| I'd like us to resume using the former pattern, and to move the existing pages with the latter type of name, if there is no objection. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (User:<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 12:33, 8 July 2014 (BST) | | Pinging [[User:TheresNoTime|Sam]], [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard]] and [[User:Mike Peel|Mike]]. Regards, [[User:Achim55|Achim55]] ([[User talk:Achim55|talk]]) 11:59, 12 August 2022 (BST) |
| :Full support from me for that. [[User:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|Chris McKenna (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|talk]]) 12:40, 8 July 2014 (BST)
| | :Good suggestions, recently raised on https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimediauk-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/EZSPL7QGSVFUCPTBFKRPR4DVZAW3WYDM/ ~[[User:TheresNoTime|TheresNoTime]] <sup>([[User talk:TheresNoTime|to explain!]])</sup> 20:46, 13 August 2022 (BST) |
| :Sounds sensible to me, I've wondered why that format is used too. Perhaps there was a reason for the shift? [[User:Sjgknight|Sjgknight]] ([[User talk:Sjgknight|talk]]) 12:41, 8 July 2014 (BST)
| | :Just noting I've created [[Spam]] [[User:TheresNoTime|TheresNoTime]] ([[User talk:TheresNoTime|talk]]) 19:13, 15 August 2022 (BST) |
| ::The newer form is more human-readable, in my view.... [[User:The Land|The Land]] ([[User talk:The Land|talk]]) 13:24, 8 July 2014 (BST)
| | ::Sysop action wanted → [[User:Achim55/Spam]]. Cheers, [[User:Achim55|Achim55]] ([[User talk:Achim55|talk]]) 09:44, 10 August 2023 (BST) |
| ::: It's also easier to link to... Thanks. [[User:Mike Peel|Mike Peel]] ([[User talk:Mike Peel|talk]]) 13:29, 8 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::How so? And even if it is, that can be dealt with by redirects. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (User:<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:55, 8 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::I don't find "29Jun10" particularly human readable. <span class="vcard"><span class="fn">[[User:Pigsonthewing|Andy Mabbett]]</span> (User:<span class="nickname">Pigsonthewing</span>); [[User talk:Pigsonthewing|Andy's talk]]; [[Special:Contributions/Pigsonthewing|Andy's edits]]</span> 13:55, 8 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::I'm with Andy on this - "29Jun10" is less readable to me than "2010-06-29" and redirects (which are generally underused on this wiki) are the perfect solution to linking issues. [[User:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|Chris McKenna (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:37, 8 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::: I also prefer [[w:ISO 8601|ISO 8601]] dating, it's more logical for use of sub-pages and is easily readable, though I know not everyone is used to it. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 20:58, 8 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::: The common use in the UK is to refer to dates as Day / Month / Year, at least when they are intended to be read by the general public. ISO 8601 is a wonderful thing for databases but is rather less familiar to people who aren't used to them. So I think the current version is significantly more usable. [[User:The Land|The Land]] ([[User talk:The Land|talk]]) 19:59, 10 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::::: If readability for the general public is the primary concern then I see no reason why the date can't written in full i.e. "29 June 2010". [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 21:27, 10 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::::I think the point re: changing is readability is moot if you can't find the page, the 2009-03 format makes it easier to get an overview of (and find individual) meetings from 2009, and isn't that odd to read. [[User:Sjgknight|Sjgknight]] ([[User talk:Sjgknight|talk]]) 21:34, 10 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::::: I've always preferred the YYYY-MM-DD format for use in page titles as it allows Ajax to suggest autocompletions and aids manual searching - even more so if you're looking at a category with lots of pages. As an example, when I created the page for the first meeting of the Audit & Risk Committee, I named it [[Audit and Risk Committee/Meeting 2013-04-29]]. Since then, a different scheme has been used, so that perusing [[:Category:Audit and Risk Committee]] gives the September 2014 meeting before the May and January ones. Using 2014-01-14; 2014-05-21; 2014-09-01 would arrange them in chronological order and ensure that 2013 comes before 2014, before 2015, etc. It's not a big deal when there's only a few pages, but soon gets annoying when the category becomes larger. --[[User:RexxS|RexxS]] ([[User talk:RexxS|talk]]) 22:09, 10 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::::::I also personally prefer the 2014-05-21 naming convention. --[[User:MichaelMaggs|MichaelMaggs]] ([[User talk:MichaelMaggs|talk]]) 23:07, 10 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::::::: To be clear my position on this is that ISO 8601 (YYYY-MM-DD) is best, with the longhand dates (e.g. 29 June 2010) being either used in re-directs or as an alternative if ISO 8601 isn't wanted. The current format of "29Jun10" seems to be the worst of both worlds. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 23:18, 10 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::::::::It looks like we should use ISO 8601, possibly with redirects from "normal" dates.. I'll ping {{u|Richard Nevell (WMUK)}} and if he agrees (he organises this sort of thing) we'll go with that. [[User:Richard Symonds (WMUK)|Richard Symonds (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Symonds (WMUK)|talk]]) 11:06, 11 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::::::::::I don't mind especially either way. Each style has its merits and drawbacks. Whatever is decided, consistency would be preferable so some pages will need moving. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 13:19, 11 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::::::::::::ISO 8601 with redirects it is. [[User:Richard Symonds (WMUK)|Richard Symonds (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Symonds (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:39, 11 July 2014 (BST)
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| ::::::::::::::{{ping|Jonathan Cardy (WMUK)}} sorry Jonathan, idly looking at recent changes and moved what I thought was a mistaken ISO 8601 without dashes, I now see that is the historic format for the GLAM committee (apologies, obviously feel free to revert me!) - just to note here that clearly there are really a ''number'' of different formats being used...will changing require a manual edit to all? [[User:Sjgknight|Sjgknight]] ([[User talk:Sjgknight|talk]]) 16:46, 23 July 2014 (BST)
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| Is there a volunteer willing to do all the redirects. I don't really want to see staff time wasted on this bicycle shed kinda stuff? [[User:Seddon|Seddon]] ([[User talk:Seddon|talk]]) 16:45, 23 July 2014 (BST)
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| :I imagine that creating standard format redirects to pages in a different standard format would be a trivial task for a bot. I'm not a bot operator/programmer though. [[User:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|Chris McKenna (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Chris McKenna (WMUK)|talk]]) 20:55, 23 July 2014 (BST)
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| <small>'''Update:'''</small> I have added this to the [[volunteer jobs]] page at [[volunteer jobs#Automated renaming of pages in dated series]]. [[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 18:25, 23 September 2014 (BST)
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| == Train the trainers - how can we make it perfect? ==
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| First of all many thanks to those of you who gave up your Saturday for the Train the Trainers refresher session recently. I am awaiting the feedback analysis from Midas and will share it but the comments we have had so far was really positive.
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| As the programme develops it is clear that we need to make sure that you are all supported and that the experience for those you train is as good as possible.
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| So to the point. While most of the trainee feedback has been positive
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| there have been a few event attendees who have felt that we could have done better:
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| 'The woman sitting next to me did not know how to sign her name by the end of the session'
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| 'Why were there no proper handouts, no outcomes, no checking whether or not people were following'
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| 'I felt there should have been a lesson plan for the sessions that could have been adapted'
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| 'He questioned the point of belonging to WMUK' from someone who wanted to join :(
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| These could just be small isolated instances but I thought it important to listen to your thoughts.
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| Daria, Katie and I have discussed this, and think it would be useful to know if there are things we can do to support you and whether there are resources that are being neglected or need to be created.
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| I have set up a [[Train the trainers - how can we make it perfect?|discussion page]].
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| Jon.
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| [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 13:08, 15 July 2014 (BST)
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| :I don't know what to make of this.
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| :Firstly, presumably, the feedback copied above is feedback at sessions that trained trainers have run, not feedback on the refresher. This isn't made entirely clear.
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| :Secondly, if it is feedback on sessions run by trained trainers, I don't really know what we can do with this information, without knowing which specific sessions each point relates to. I guess it serves as a useful reminder of what can go wrong.... but that's about it.
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| :Presumably, following the analysis by Midas, individuals will be contacted to discuss feedback specific to the sessions they were involved in. That will be much more useful.
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| :[[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 14:48, 15 July 2014 (BST)
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| :: Yes theses were from sessions where we had trainers present. A very small sample of what are generally pleased people but pose some useful questions and I hope you will share your ideas on the discussion page - some good stuff there already. [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 14:51, 15 July 2014 (BST)
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| :::The first question these quotes pose to me is "which session do they come from?" But I think we have clarified the situation now. What you are actually after is answers to the questions on the linked page. I think the questions there provide sufficient prompt. [[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 06:34, 16 July 2014 (BST)
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| == Voting at the AGM ==
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| Yesterday a number of concerns were raised about expired membership and voting at the AGM. Evidently this year a number of people’s memberships have expired without their realising. We adopted a new procedure this year on AGM voting in response to concerns about security, and sent out voting forms in the post. It was obviously not clear to everyone that they needed the form posted to them in order to vote.
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| After Wikimania I’ll start a discussion on the wiki about whether we should continue to post voting forms in future years – unless anyone else wants to start it sooner. As far as voting at this year’s AGM is concerned the Board has asked me to say the following:
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| #If you are a member and for any reason have not received/forgotten to bring your voting paper, you can ask for a new voting paper shortly before the AGM. Papers will be available for any member who needs them. There will be a check to confirm that your membership is current.
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| #As in previous years, it will be possible for applications for membership to be considered in advance of the AGM, and for the Board to have oversight when it holds a meeting just before the AGM. If you have come to Wikimania believing that you are a member and just discovered that you aren’t any more, and you want to rejoin and vote: you can apply to rejoin up to noon tomorrow using the online form at https://donate.wikimedia.org.uk/civicrm/contribute/transact?reset=1&id=4
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| If you are readmitted you will be given voting papers and may vote.
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| Apologies for any difficulty caused this year. I hope this answers the concerns raised.
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| Thanks
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| Alastair McCapra
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| WMUK Secretary
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| [[User:Sjgknight|Sjgknight]] ([[User talk:Sjgknight|talk]]) 10:30, 8 August 2014 (BST) (adding on behalf of Alastair)
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| ==WikiMedia==
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| Is anyone in the office aware of this: http://www.wiki-media.co.uk ? [[User:Philafrenzy|Philafrenzy]] ([[User talk:Philafrenzy|talk]]) 22:00, 10 August 2014 (BST)
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| :Reported to WMF legal. Thanks for spotting this. --[[User:MichaelMaggs|MichaelMaggs]] ([[User talk:MichaelMaggs|talk]]) 07:38, 11 August 2014 (BST)
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| == Train the Trainers November 2014 ==
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| Is there any reason that the event page for the train the trainers event in November is [https://donate.wikimedia.org.uk/civicrm/event/info?id=117&reset=1 in the donate domain] rather than on this wiki? [[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 09:08, 26 August 2014 (BST)
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| :Good morning Yaris, I hope you had a good bank holiday weekend. The donate domain ties directly into CiviCRM, the database we use to organise and curate our events. It helps with sending reminders, for instance, and makes contact with people who've registered a bit easier as we can email them. People might not check this wiki regularly. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 09:42, 26 August 2014 (BST) | |
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| ::People meaning WMUK staff? I never check the donate domain but often check this one. [[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 10:38, 26 August 2014 (BST)
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| :::On the contrary, staff check the wiki frequently. But I think it's fair to say that not everyone will. If for example someone receives a watchlist notice about the event and comes to our wiki, as it's not something they usually do they might not check back that often. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:58, 26 August 2014 (BST) | |
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| Looks like we are having a page in this domain too... [[Training the Trainers/November 2014 event]]... [[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 08:35, 29 August 2014 (BST)
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| ::::[[Training the Trainers/November 2014 event]] was only created because I needed a page on the wiki to interwiki links to from English Wikipedia & Wikimedia Commons watchlist notice. -- [[User:Katie Chan (WMUK)|Katie Chan (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Katie Chan (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:58, 29 August 2014 (BST)
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| :::::I think it's a good idea to have at least a page on this wiki as well as part of normal practice. This wiki and its categories are the logical place to look for some of us for details of any event WMUK is involved in. Cheers, [[User:MartinPoulter|MartinPoulter]] ([[User talk:MartinPoulter|talk]]) 20:50, 29 August 2014 (BST)
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| == Business cards for volunteers ==
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| After much discussion we are experimenting with the issuing of volunteer 'business' cards for a six month period to assess demand and how they work.
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| We hope they will help our volunteer community introduce themselves to people and organisations they come into contact with.
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| If anyone would like a WMUK business card identifying them as a 'Volunteer' please let Fabian Tompsett know in the office. fabian.tompsett@wikimedia.org.uk
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| Members of the charity who are active volunteers will be eligible for the cards.
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| [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 10:44, 11 September 2014 (BST)
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| :That's a good idea and I should imagine you'll see significant benefits. [[User:QuiteUnusual|QuiteUnusual]] ([[User talk:QuiteUnusual|talk]]) 10:49, 11 September 2014 (BST)
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| ::Thanks QuiteUnusual (like your user page photos) Let's hope it proves popular. [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 13:59, 11 September 2014 (BST)
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| :::Thanks, I really must go back to Moors Valley with my proper camera. The miniature railway is superbly detailed. [[User:QuiteUnusual|QuiteUnusual]] ([[User talk:QuiteUnusual|talk]]) 11:55, 12 September 2014 (BST)
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| == SSL Certificates ==
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| Dear Engine Room, Katherine is happy for you to see her report on what happened with the SSL certificates. Ideally our proposed Development postholder will develop a longer term response but any thoughts you want to share ill be appreciated.
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| From Katherine Bavage
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| * In May myself and Tom Morton discussed renewal of the SSL. I pointed out it had been really difficult to verify in 2013. He assured me that it would be a simple pay and verify by DNS as this was a renewal.
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| * On 1st August Richard Symonds made payment to Gandi via foreign payments transfer at my request
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| * In the following three weeks we received renewal reminders
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| * On the 30th August we received a final renewal reminder. I contacted Tom to ask why the domain was not verfied by DNS assuming payment had been made.
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| * On checking with Richard and Gandi it was apparent that the payment had still not transferred
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| * I cancelled the payment by BACS and paid by credit card
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| * It was then apparent that in fact verification documents were re-required desipite what I have been advised
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| * I provided the verification documents by Hellofax online fax service
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| * The customer support person who responded to my request this be dealt with urgently was repeatedly unable to read the faxes or authorise any other method of verification. This was despite my providing the exact same documents in the same format as 2013 and highlighting to him the problems this exact same method caused the first time.
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| * After six attempts to provide a legible fax I stopped trying and requested the attention of a senior or specialist member of staff. No one one was available until Monday morning
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| * On Monday morning after further prompting I was contact directly and ask to email the verification documents. I did, these were reviewed and found sufficient
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| Headlines:
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| * We should have realised verification documents were needed a second time. It was an unreasonable process and I would have dealt with it pre-Wikimania had I known
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| * The delay to transfer by BACS was unhelpful - in retrospect I wouldn't have paid that way had I realised the funds wouldn't have cleared 30 days later
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| * The customer support failing to deal with for 36 hours despite it clearly being the inadequacy of their system and my being explicit about the consternation the expiry would cause. I will put in a complaint and will feedback the response for information - if you wanted to add comments about the impact let me have them
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| * We won't use them again
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| Tom can advise on the specifics of this but I can assure you that in fact the certificate being expired didn't compromise the security of our systems. It did compromise the user experience, which I take seriously, but is a different thing (had is been the former I would have worked with Tom to buy another certificate from another provider on Saturday). I hope that is somewhat reassuring.
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| Posted on Katherine's behalf [[User:Jon Davies (WMUK)|Jon Davies (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Jon Davies (WMUK)|talk]]) 15:06, 12 September 2014 (BST)
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| == [[Strategy monitoring plan/Outcomes/2014 Q2|Q2 report card]] ==
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| A summary of how Wikimedia UK is doing against its KPIs is now available. If you want more detail, there's a link at the top of the page to the charity's report to the FDC. [[User:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|Richard Nevell (WMUK)]] ([[User talk:Richard Nevell (WMUK)|talk]]) 11:29, 6 October 2014 (BST)
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| ==South Coast Wikimeet==
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| Would it be OK to add [[:m:Meetup/English South Coast 1|this meetup]] to the events list on [[Main Page|WMUK's main page]]?
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| I do not have the privileges to make this addition.
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| Best Regards -- [[User:Marek69|<span style="color: DarkBlue">Marek</span><span style="color: Blue"><small>.69</small></span>]][[user_talk:Marek69|<span style="color: Green"><small><sup>'' talk''</sup></small></span>]] 00:01, 21 October 2014 (BST)
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| :Hi Marek,
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| :I have added the event to the [[Events]] page. You can edit that page too.
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| :Events get copied across from the Events page to the Main Page every so often.
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| :[[User:Yaris678|Yaris678]] ([[User talk:Yaris678|talk]]) 04:46, 21 October 2014 (BST)
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| : I did add it but then I realized that far more from [[Events]] needs to be copied over to cover all of November, which would make the Main Page much longer in the right-hand coloum. So I would suggest leaving it for now and copying over late November events nearer the time. [[User:CT Cooper|CT Cooper]]<small><span style="font-weight:bold;"> ·</span> [[User talk:CT Cooper|talk]]</small> 15:57, 21 October 2014 (BST)
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| ::Thank you {{U|Yaris678|Yaris}} and {{U|CT Cooper|Chris}}. :-) [[User:Marek69|<span style="color: DarkBlue">Marek</span><span style="color: Blue"><small>.69</small></span>]][[user_talk:Marek69|<span style="color: Green"><small><sup>'' talk''</sup></small></span>]] 00:49, 23 October 2014 (BST)
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